Rahi: Welcome to Organic Sexuality where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, a sexological body worker and creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. Before today's interview, an announcement that registration and immediate access to the online course, the three keys to genital disarming for reclaiming and expanding pleasure will open on July 5th for the fall cohort. For more information about the course and registration, please visit somaticsexualwholeness.mykajabi.com/3keys. Also to be notified of future retreats of embodied eros for couples learning how to touch open and commune with the erogenous areas of your partner's genitalia and their full bodies, 11 erogenous zones. Please visit somaticsexualwholeness.mykajabi.com/eros. Today we invite Tani Thole and Leslie Rogers of the Light Dark Institute to the podcast. How can we identify and embody and integrate previously disowned aspects of herself back into wholeness? Are there aspects of your sexuality that you've judged, shamed, and relegated to the shadows? And by doing so, limiting your sexual wisdom, expression, and life force,

Rahi: Tani and Leslie created the Light Dark Institute to support an access to the full approval of ourselves and the world around us by touching in into the dark, darker places inside of ourselves, and thereby inviting an ownership and embodiment of our full power, vulnerability, intimacy, and freedom.

Rahi: I am super excited today to be inviting, uh, Tani and Leslie to the podcast. Um, you know, there's so much to explore here, um, but let me, let me introduce to you guys the audience, how I know Leslie and Tani. Um, I had the pleasure of participating in one of their four day workshops very recently, just a couple of months ago, and this is after hearing about their work, gosh, probably seven or eight years ago. So you guys have been on my radar for that long, and I, I was so just delighted to have the opportunity to experience your very, um, conscientious and impeccably facilitated workshop, you know, in person. It was really, really a wonderful experience for me. Tani Thole and Leslie Rogers have dedicated their lives to the study and exploration of the human psyche and its relationship with the non-material world through spirituality, psychology, personal development, sexuality, and embodiment.

Rahi: They founded Light Dark Institute out of a passion for sharing the ways that exploring our dark sides can radically awaken and liberate us from the old patterns that have held us back and kept us in judgment of ourselves and the world around us, to access full approval of ourselves and the world around us, and thereby step into our full power, vulnerability, intimacy and freedom. It is necessary to touch the darker places inside of ourselves. It can be terrifying to explore these aspects of ourselves when we have childhood traumas and a lifetime of societal conditioning telling us it's not safe to let these parts be seen at the Light Dark Institute. We create safe spaces for people to explore their shadow sides and tap into the raw force of their personal power and their own deepest potential so they can transform their own lives and the world around them. Tani and Leslie, thank you so much for being guests on this podcast. It's great to see you guys.

Tani: Great to see you. Thank you, Rahi. Thank you so much for having us, for Marvel to be here. Yeah. So great to see you and hello to everybody who's listening or watching. Yeah,

Rahi: Right on. You know, I'd like our audience to clearly understand the realms of spaces that you hold. So, I experienced the four day workshop, which in invited about, I think, 25 participants to identify, embody via somatic exercises, interact and relate with others from previously disowned shadow aspects. So our dark ar archetypes or dark types of ourselves, which culminated and ceremony work of fully embodying and creating new relational imprints, exploring these dark types in an intentional container with agreed upon boundaries, safe words, gestures, and aftercare. I know a lot of your service is also holding space for very personalized one-on-one or couples retreats, um, in ceremony, based on very clarified intentions about taking full ownership of disowned shadow aspects of the South. Could you guys share in your own words the intention of each of your offerings?

Tani: Yeah. Wow. , I love that question. It's, uh, it's a big question because I think the thing that I wanna say to start off with is, and we'll, we can get into a little bit more at some point, I'm sure about talking about what light dark work is like, what the heart of the work is. But one thing that's relevant to mention about it is, it's generally speaking, it's it's deep end of the pool work. It's, it's work that is really designed for people who've already been on a powerful personal growth journey for a while and have really built some muscles around self-awareness and capacity to hold themselves capacity to move through their own process. And so the work we do, whether it be our private intensives or our workshops, is, is very deep dive kind of work.

Leslie: The reason we call it light dark is to create a, a, a separation between those two approaches. And, uh, the, what we call light work is basically any time you're going in to heal, change, transform, exit, some pattern, um, it's really about progress. It's growing. It's moving in a, in a new direction. It's, it's seeing a better day and moving towards it. And what we mean by dark work is basically loving what is embracing accepting everything as it is and not trying to change it. Mm-hmm. , and we separate those two things because I, although we believe they work in tandem beautifully, it's just the way the world works. Mm-hmm. , they can disrupt each other. Uh, when, when you're thinking, like some, a lot of times people are head into shadow work or trying to learn how to love themselves through trying to make themselves better.

Leslie: Right. Um, which then can create more disowned parts that, you know, you can get into this kind of infinite wheel if you're just doing light work where you're mm-hmm. like, you know, wow, you had this discovery and you found out that this part of yourself was the part that was in the way, and then you, you'd start working on it to try to make it better. And you don't realize that we're kind of oftentimes fulfilling parental patterns that we, that created the whole situation in the first place. And we're all our minds, our beings are just going towards what we know. And so we create these, um, internal dynamics that that can just perpetuate the very thing we're trying to exit through. Trying to exit. And what dark work does is really just like looking at what is looking at that gross, disgusting, perverted, violating violent, murderous, destructive, horrendous, gnarly, just the things you just want to get rid of, you wish weren't there in yourself and the world around you.

Leslie: And realizing that that compulsion to reject is the invitation in Yes. The invitation into embodying the invitation into owning that this too is part of your experience. This this part is part of your essential self. Because on some level in the it's most objective sense, you're creating it. Mm-hmm. , you're creating this world of judgments. You're creating this world, this world of violence and murders that isn't to dismiss, you know, kind of objective reality entirely. But it is to say like, there is, we, we play a role and how we do that mm-hmm. and light when we, when we go at trying to get rid of it, ironically, that's what genocide does. That's what murder is, is trying to get rid of the darkness. Mm-hmm. , that's what prison is, that's what mm-hmm. , all of these things that are kind of almost just natural day-to-day parts of life are, are just attempting to do, and we just accept it. And ironically, light work can become very dark.

Rahi: Like I think we live in a society that loves talking about the light, loves kind of showing off the light, focusing on the light. And it, it, it's really, we're really denying so much of our existence and so much of nature itself. And what you're speaking to Leslie, like, it is the judgment, it is in the denying that kind of like, allows it to fester and kind of become, you know, come out in really shadowy, unconscious ways.

Tani: Yeah, absolutely. When, when we're like, I can't see that part of me, then all of a sudden that part gets in the driver's seat and we're like, I'm not seeing what's happening. Mm-hmm. , you know, it can, it can definitely cause blind spots. If you put a, a lid on a pot of boiling water, you're like, stuff that lid on it, stop it, but then it's gonna boil over anyway. And those moments where it comes out, it's like, I'm a nice conscious, light oriented person and I don't hold bad vibes. And then all of a sudden like, ah, and all this rage comes out in some unexpected moment. And so, so those are, those are some of the pitfalls of, of a strictly light orientation as we define light and dark. That being said, we absolutely honor light work as a very, very important path.

Tani: You know, we, for us, light and dark are both equally important, and there's a time and a place for both of them. Mm-hmm. . And in our work, we really do fundamentally weave them together in, you know, when, when we get into talking about our offerings, we're, we're always using both of them because in any given moment, with any person's system or with a group or with, you know, anything that's arising in some moments, the path is to go dark. It's to really be like, okay, how do we, how do we really be with what's here without trying to change it and finding the gifts and really honoring the power or the wisdom that is coming through this. Cuz there's so much wisdom in those parts of us and the world that we wanna push away. They have so many answers for us. They have so many gifts to bring, and we lose that when we push them away.

Tani: So, so it's really feeling like, okay, is this the moment to really sit with that and, and harvest the gifts and the wisdom that are coming through this darkness mm-hmm. , or is it the moment of like, no, there's a trauma here that is gonna put the brakes on everything until it gets addressed. And we need to really bring in the, you know, the soft, gentle healing and, and really hold and bring resource. Light work is a lot about bringing resource to the areas that have felt under resourced and, and through that, helping them to transform and, and move, you know, and shift and change and heal. So we really honor both. And to us, the, the actual really exciting point is where they meet because there, there's a, there's a place where light and dark kind of become each other and, and, and fuse and come into this infinite dance with each other.

Tani: You know, for, for all that it's been kind of, uh, you know, unfortunately be, become almost cliched as a symbol. But the yin yang symbol is an incredibly powerful symbol of exactly that. Mm-hmm. , the light and the dark are, are, you know, chasing each other in this kind of constant spiral dance mm-hmm. . And at the point of the center of each one is a point of the other. It's like, you go, you go all the way into the light and you can come out into the dark where you're in this perfect approval of everything, and if you go all the way into the dark, all of a sudden you can pop out into the light where this incredible transformation is happening. So that, that symbol really is actually what we're up to here with the Light Dark Institute and with, it's really where, where light and dark are in that infinite dance together and the healing mm-hmm. and the, and the embracing of what is be, become one.

Rahi: Yeah. You know, I really found that to be the case that interweaving between the light and the dark in, in the workshop, you guys layered it so beautifully, you know, like practice after practice. But really identifying, owning our disgust, owning our resistance and avoidance, and then in inviting us to take that on somatically and then to relate to other beings somatically, I found that those archetypes that I was most disgusted by are the ones that made me feel most empowered, you know, in ceremony, in, in relating with others in the various somatic exercises. I would love the audience to understand like the, the offerings that you have, because my, you know, I experienced the workshop, I had a friend who did a one-on-one intensive. I know you work with couples as well. Um, can you share if the intention, like, is the intention pretty much what you laid out, like really interweaving both the light and the dark so that we can be at peace with our whole selves and empower as a result empowered? Or are there different intentions for the couples, uh, intensive retreats or the one-on-ones that you offer

Leslie: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll talk about, we call it the light dark experience and mm-hmm. , that's the three

Tani: Day, that's our private intensive,

Leslie: It's our private intensive that we do with individuals or with couples and our group workshops. Were really kind of looking at the darkness together as a group and, um, and using our own individual darknesses to bring them together to explore with each other in this kind of, um, open-ended intention towards really embracing the darkness is, which, which is what we call the first level workshop. And our private work, like dark experiences are really about the individual and their intentions. Hmm. And I'll say, you know, what we do is we go, we, we, we enter, we create a container, we enter into direct play with our clients mm-hmm. , um, we utilize, in our private work, in our private work, we utilize aspects of and that container. Mm-hmm. kink, namely safe words, aftercare boundaries, negotiations, negotiations for all those things. And we add in a one aspect that for us, makes it something more than just an exploration of erotic desire, but we add in intentions.

Leslie: And intentions are about like where you want to, they're really light oriented tools about where you want to be on the other side of this, um mm-hmm. who you wanna be, you see something, what would it be like if you didn't constantly run away from this part of yourself, but instead this part of yourself was integrated into your, your life. And we just, we go into direct play. We basically do those intentions and it's a really open-ended, totally custom design for each individual or each couple to just dive into whatever is arising and play with it. And we interweave that with like, uh, lots of going into play, embodying these creatures and having them meet each other. Um, yeah. You know, we're always, we actually, you know, come out and meet the asym asymmetrical opposite of that other one. If there's, there's one in there who wants to dominate or take control or violate, or if there's one in there who wants all the, wants to receive all of those things.

Leslie: Mm-hmm. , um, this is a container where we can actually start to explore what's outside of kind of our conditioned levels of power that we're will willing to that, that we've been kind of like, if I go too far this way, it gets really scary and dangerous. And if I go far too far this way, it gets really scary, dangerous over here. I'll be destroyed. I'll be knocked down over here, I'll lose myself, you know? Mm-hmm. as you go up mm-hmm. in power, or down in power, as it were. And there's lots of fears that come up in there. So we're playing in new power ranges. We're playing with aspects that have never gotten a chance to be spoken from, if you know, only spoken about. So when those, and when those parts get to be spoken from, it's an incredibly powerful liberating experience because we, we, what we'll always discover to on some level is like, wow, this has been me all along .

Leslie: And, you know, it kinda like, you know, I think of it as like, there's this great roomy poem that I can't think of at the moment, but it's like you're knocking on the door to your truce, to your higher self, to the divine, and you're like, please open this door if I could just get good enough. And then it's like, through acceptance, the door just opens on the other side and there you are looking at mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. . And that's the experience of like, embodying the darkness is like suddenly, instead of scratching at the door trying to get in, you are on the other side of the door looking back at yourself at the one who judged, worried, denied, and so mm-hmm. in the, in the, in the, in the private experiences, we're really going into and customizing experiences that maximize that, that experience, that embodiment of those dark parts.

Rahi: An invitation to pause and notice your breathing right now, what are you feeling in your body as you take in the themes of this exploration? Can you feel any disowned or shamed aspects of yourself in your body that are wanting yearning, may be hungering to be acknowledged, explored, embodied, and integrated? Let's take a deep breath and feel whatever it is you're feeling and make it okay exactly as it is.

Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I, I wanna just reflect that, you know, these, these aspects that we've shamed often come from deep childhood wounds, you know, where we've disowned because it was too dangerous to really embody or, or come from that aspect. And so it's profound work. It's profound work. I mean, the friend who shared with me their one-on-one individual retreat with you just spoke about how incredibly thorough and detailed the prep, the, the preparation leading up to the retreat is, you know, they, they clarified their intentions. They were re honed, they were kind of redefined until they really got to kind of the, the, the crystal, you know, gem of what it is that they wanted to break through around. And then like, it sounds like every day was just, you know, really embodying, taking, just kind of bringing in that disowned aspect to really embody and feel through and through and to relate, you know, with you guys in scene work so much so that when they got to the other side, like you said, Leslie, you know, the, they're on the other side of that door looking back, um mm-hmm.

Rahi: , it, it just, it feels so profound. I'm, I'm curious whether the intensives you do for couples, like, I'm guessing, you know, like we all have our disowned aspects as individuals, even within a relationship. I mean, on the one, on the one hand, it would be amazing to play a role in the ownership of your partner's, you know, disowned aspect. On the other hand, I'm guessing maybe some couples realize that their core desires may be very, very different. Like, I, I'm curious how it is for you guys to hold space for couples as opposed to individuals. Mm-hmm. , yeah.

Tani: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Well, before I speak to that specifically, or whichever of us is gonna speak to that, I wanna just add in a little bit of context around the, the pri the private work, the light dark experience that we're talking about, just so that your audience has some picture of, of what we're talking about. Um, so it's a three day, two night experience that's, that's just the two of us with one client or one couple for that whole time. And it's in person, you know, as Leslie was saying, we're in direct play. We're doing kind of weaving back and forth between coaching and direct embodied play. And there is, as you were referring to, and I just wanted to make sure this is well understood as we're diving into this, that there is an extensive intake process. The, the whole light dark experience actually unfolds over the course of about two to three months because we do this huge intake process and then also a deep follow-up process to help with integration.

Tani: And in the intake process, the very first thing that we do is a very deep dive into our client's backstory. We, we have them fill out an extensive intake form, plus we do a call to really get the nitty gritty of like their childhood and family history, all of the kind of traumas and experiences of childhood. Also their sexual and relationship history. Any, you know, major, major traumas, major transformations, major accomplishments, major heartbreaks, like really we get the whole picture of their life up until then. And also where they're wanting to go in their life so that we really have a sense of what are the forces that have shaped them. And like you're saying, you know, these, these spots that come up, that both the disowned things that we don't wanna look at and the stories that we have about ourselves, and also the places we're wanting to go and the blocks that are there.

Tani: It's all so impacted by the forces that have shaped us by traumas that have happened in our lives by role models, positive and negative. You know, it's, it's so impacted by our life's journey up until that point. So we really take seriously doing a lot of research so that we really understand what our client has, has been through in their life and what's helped to shape them so that we can really hold them well. And then, as you mentioned, the intention setting process, it's not just a like, oh, hey, write some intentions on a piece of paper and we'll see you in a few weeks. It's like, it's a, it's a multi, we do calls, we're sending drafts back and forth. We're pulling things apart. We're delving into, you know, their shame stories about themselves as well as where they're really wanting to go. We're really doing a lot of feedback to help them maybe be like, okay, that one, but then, you know, you've got that intention, but it feels totally like pie in the sky.

Tani: Like what do you actually need to know and find in yourself to get to that place that you're wanting to go to? So the intentions wind up being just incredible by the time we even start the experience, because each one of them is like so packed with power and potency and also kind of a roadmap in and of itself of how to get there. And then what we're doing in the experience is really taking people through that. Like, cuz cuz here's the intention, but the grooves that they've developed over life may go that way. And it's like, how do we actually make grooves in your system to know how to get to that place where that intention is pointing you so that when you go home, and we support a lot through the integration process too, but so that when you go home, you're like, right, I know what that feels like in my body. I've been there, I've been that person. I know how to do that. I know how to be that. And oh, right here's how I remember how to get there. And that's what the integration process is, is in supporting to really make sure that those grooves keep, keep refining and honing and deepening so that there's more and more of that access.

Leslie: And, and I'll just add in what really makes it so powerful is, you know, it's funny, you can, and this is so often our clients experience, they're like, oh my God, just this one hour was like a year of therapy. Because when we actually just get in and play with the things we're so terrified of the resistance makes it seem like just the most horrendous thing, we're gonna die, we're gonna be go crazy, we're gonna be a bad person, we're gonna hurt somebody. All that stuff comes up for everybody. And it's essential that it does, because it wouldn't be dark if it didn't , . Mm-hmm. . And so the mm-hmm. When we do these experiences are for people, for, for people who really get the value, at least on some level, the value of going in there mm-hmm. . Um, cause that's, that's what we're gonna do.

Leslie: And when you get in there Wow. Like suddenly I have all this experience of all these desires that were forbidden mm-hmm. That were cut off. Yes. Mm-hmm. aspects of things you, you wanted, but then it got labeled as entitled, selfish. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. or things you really wanted or got labeled as like, you know, weak and small or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. You know, like needy mm-hmm. . And we just, we have these, like all these classifications that come up over to protect ourselves from being re-traumatized by the ways that trauma and experience passed down mm-hmm. . And so when we're working, kind of going back to this question, we're working with couples, um, we're really putting the focus on the intentions of the relationship. I see where they want the relationship to be on the other side of this. Mm. So mm-hmm.

Leslie: , when, when they, you know, when, so I love that question about like when people have different core desires Yeah. Which is the case for so many couples mm-hmm. . And even if it wasn't in the beginning, eventually there's gonna be some differences. There's gonna be some places where it's like, well, I just want that. And I, you know, he, he, she, they don't want it mm-hmm. and how do, how do we play with that? What do we do when that happens? And for us, it's a really open-ended palette of what's possible. But the main thing that is, uh, that, that, that exploring your dark sides can do is open up whole new hosts of desires that she didn't know were there.

Rahi: Mm. Mm-hmm. .

Leslie: So there is, you know, I think if there's an aversion for something your partner wants, that's very interesting to us. You know, if you're just kind of like in different, then maybe you can still play and still meet in different ways. It's not a problem. But if there's a problem meeting your partner in something and you're really interested in transformation and exploring darkness, that is a great darkness to explore. And so our partners become these great mirrors for us to explore aspects of ourselves that we might have denied or exiled. And what can happen a lot with couples is they come in thinking one of them's, the other one's not one of, you know, how do we, how do we bring these core desires together? What do we do? And we get in there and realize like, oh, well what is? Well, it's, it's, uh, being interested in power, well I was interested in power in these very narrow ways, like would it look like this or that, the things I was, but when I opened up to my darkness, I realized there's a much broader spectrum mm-hmm.

Leslie: . And in those broader spectrums, the couples could start finding new places to play and meet that neither one of them had a conception of before going in, we can kind of have a conception. Cuz we've been doing this. Like, we're like, oh, okay, we . I see a lot of possibility there, . Mm-hmm. , let's find out what happened though. You know, and we just trust the process. We're not really coaching people towards something, something, it's really, when they open to it, it's gonna be so much more than we could ever like, put into words really. Or even like hope to understand or know for each person. So we really trust this process of play of going in, embodying those things mm-hmm. and on the other side, it's like, okay, great. They're the ones with the discoveries. We're just there to help. How do you now integrate this, recontextualize this into other aspects of your life?

Rahi: Wow. That is really, uh, clear. You know, like what I'm hearing is, is like if there is an aversion to something, there's some charge there and that charge means there's some juice there to explore. You know, it's very different than indifference. Right. And then if there, you know, when there is a charge there and there is something to explore when there's an ownership of a dark archetype, it just opens up all of these realms of possibilities that were not available before. Mm-hmm. . So both people start to, bro, I mean they, both, both parties have a, a broadened a more expansive, um, palette mm-hmm. That they didn't even realize was possible beforehand. Mm-hmm. That's very, very exciting.

Leslie: Can I just slip it a please? A specific example how this could work? Great. It's like some cases we have someone who really wants to be like, dominated or humiliated or put down, and the other partner is very like, I don't, I don't want that. I don't like that kind of play. Like, ugh. And maybe even slightly judging their partner's desire for that mm-hmm. and we're like, oh, you're almost there . You're so close. . Yeah. You're already doing the thing that your partner wants you to do. It's just, it's mm-hmm. at the, it's at the look, the image of it as opposed to the embodiment just embody your, we call it arrogant disdain, just embody bring it forward. That's the thing your partners actually really craving is to feel your that, to have that intimacy with your actual judgements. Mm. You know, as opposed to like, we, we use these things to kind of like, hold ourselves back from it.

Leslie: They can become blocks our intimacy. And when we embody the darkness, all of a sudden we can not only not just close the gap a little, but actually wake up like this almost on the other side. Like where things flipped around like, oh my gosh, like I actually love this more. You know, in some cases their partner won something like humiliation or to be dominated, and then their partner's like, oh, I don't want that. And then their partner gets there and is like, actually likes doing it more than the partner even is available for mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , you know, at that moment. Like the ways these things like grow and flip. And we, especially in relationships, we, we, we really start to become each other. Our, you know, we see a relationship of partnership as a place of, of practice, of, of growing together. We reparent each other, we, we recondition and we also repeat the traumas and condition of the past mm-hmm. . So there's so much possibility in the relationship itself to transform the individuals Yeah. And for the relationship to be transformed into something beyond what our ideas of what our parents in society have given us.

Rahi: Yeah. It's, it's exciting and really profound. Um, you know, I'm curious as we're discussing this, whether, do you find that when couples come to you guys for the three day intensives, that a lot of their intentions revolve around owning, taking ownership of previously disowned sexual aspects or, or sexual selves? Or are they more kind of overarching? Because to be honest with you, that was one of the surprises when I participated in your workshop, was that for some reason, maybe because of my past visits to your website, I thought that it would be more of an exploration of disowned sexual selves. What I found was that, as I mentioned to you as we did identify and somatically explore and relate from these disowned ar overarching dark types, that that really affected my taking ownership of different aspects of my sexual self. But I'm curious, when couples come to you, are they more kind of focused on wanting to embody and own what's been shamed about their sexuality? Or is it more kind of overarching dark archetypes

Tani: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , that's a great question. Uh, I will answer that before, do you wanna share the Oscar Wilde

Leslie: Quote? I love this quote by Oscar Wilde of just, um, it, it highlights I think a, a hidden truth, um, that there can be a challenge to accept, which is everything is about sex except for sex. Mm. That's about power.

Rahi: Mm. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. That is a great quote.

Tani: So that, that to us feels very relevant because mm-hmm. , like how do you actually put a definition on what is sex and what isn't? Mm-hmm. What is sexual and what isn't, you know, there, from our, from our lens there, there can be a sexual or erotic component to some of the most mundane things out there. And especially when you start to acknowledge the power piece around sex. You know, like, there's just so much, there's all these layers happening that we don't acknowledge typically. Right. Because it's like, well, that's sexual and that's not, and so, just like you're saying in our workshop, you know, and, and the same is true in a light, dark experience. The, the boundaries of Exactly. Like, you know, for example, in the light dark experience and in our workshops we have a no genital contact boundary mm-hmm. . So there's not actual penetrative sex happening, but that doesn't mean that there can't be an incredible amount of stuff in the sexual realms or the erotic realms that's getting worked and getting touched.

Tani: Mm-hmm. , you know? Absolutely. And sometimes it comes through the most, most unexpected ways. Mm-hmm. , sometimes you go towards the sexual and it becomes something very other than what we normally think of as sexual. Sometimes you go towards something that doesn't seem typically sexual and all of a sudden it's highly erotic. And so to us it really is. It's like a, you know, it's, yeah. Sex, sex and sexuality are one of the things that get most intensely relegated to the darkness. And, and by the way, before we defined light work and dark work, but we haven't defined what we, what we describe as light, light and dark. We, we think of light as anything that we have approval for that we can see and we have approval for. We're like, yep, that, that's good. I'm good with that. Mm. And the dark is anything that we either can't see or don't have approval for mm-hmm. . And so there's so much about sexuality that gets relegated into those realms of darkness. And for each person it's different, right? Mm-hmm. What, what is mm-hmm. one person's, you know, light, I've got approval for it, is another person's dark, they don't have approval for it, and vice versa. Mm-hmm. . So it's really personal, which is one of the beauties of the light dark experiences. We can go really in on the specifics for each person.

Leslie: One thing I'll say is, uh, one lens you can take on the world that I think is really powerful is basically, you know, seeing all suffering, pain, all the things that we make into a problem in our lives as mm-hmm. , um, shamed, pushed down, repressed sexual energy. So in other words, like if we were feeling all of ourselves, including our, the sexuality of it, of every moment. So I think that, you know, to me it's helpful to think about it in terms of chakras or centers of feeling that we have inside of Russell. Some centers of feeling are closed off. Like when you're in the workplace to stay safe, you close off your sexual feelings. And that by doing so, we don't feel desires and therefore we don't feel tempted to do something that would have us lose our job or something like that, or mm-hmm.

Leslie: . Mm-hmm. , there's all sorts of situations where we turn it off. It doesn't mean it's not happening at all. It is still happening. Mm-hmm. , and that's kinda like where we put the lid on the pot where it can start to foil over mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. . And so, you know, the stance that we take is, you know, feeling everything that's there. Even the gross stuff that you're not supposed to feel. I say gross in quotations cuz it's not really gross, it's, it's just the full range of human experience. Mm-hmm. does not put you at effect of losing yourself unless that's what you want to have happen. You know, like unless you, unless you're going to the erotic to lose yourself or, or to like, or to discover something, you know, and then the rest of the time not feeling it. And, you know, our, our ideal, what we want for our clients and what we want for the world is for us to be available to feel the whole range of ourselves and thus have us live truly in the moment and not according to our conditioning and trauma, which is what has us shut down those centers of feeling and say, this is sexual, this is not sexual.

Leslie: We do this cuz that's how we stay safe. It makes so much sense. You know, there's so many situations where it makes so much sense not to feel your sexual desires, but that does not stop that energy from continuing to run. And in some cases creating disastrous messes that we don't see coming cause we're not available for feeling.

Rahi: Mm-hmm.

Leslie: and another way, think about this.

Rahi: No, no. Please

Tani: Haven't even gotten your question.

Rahi: Yeah. Know my mind's going off on tangents as well, like Yeah, yeah. Just to piggyback on something that everything is sexual and that, you know, like, I mean, of course everything's sexual, like we're sexual beings and it's all, they're all expressions of this sexual life force. And what I found, you know, really fascinating was, you know, the culmination of the workshop in Boulder, I was paired up with a, with a terrific guy and I just anni annihilated him with, you know, energetically, I just like tore his heart out. I mean, I was the dom and it was highly erotic and sexual, yet it wasn't like traditionally sexual at all. But that energy of consuming and wanting to devour someone was so freeing and liberating and, and erotic at the same time.

Tani: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Such a beautiful example. Thank you for sharing that.

Leslie: That goes, I'll just share cuz it goes exactly. So well with what I wanted to share is like, a lot of times we're afraid to go to these places, like the part that would kill and devour another being mm-hmm. because we think we would lose ourselves to it or, you know, we would suddenly be open to that kind of desire or something like that. But what we've, what we find when you do it consciously, when you approach it mm-hmm. consciously, you don't lose yourself. You're still the sta same compassionate, caring, being mm-hmm. mm-hmm. who now gets to integrate this part of ourselves. And, and really when we do that, the actual effect is if we ever do encounter, say a violent situation where that creature is external to us happening mm-hmm. before we would shut down feeling, be in a reactive place and I think be in a less safe place in ourselves in response to that person. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , because we would, when we get reactive and we shut down, we actually create the experience for the devour, for the murderer, for the killer, for the one

Rahi: Who wants

Leslie: To destroy mm-hmm. that separation, that disconnection that they're actually trying to destroy.

Rahi: Yes.

Leslie: And so we actually become the one to destroy by our, by our fear and reactivity. Whereas when we're in love with that part of ourselves and we see it in another and we're able to, at least we, it doesn't mean we can't take care of ourselves, but we're able to tap into that empathy, that connection. Mm. We enter whole new realms of experience that, that I, you know, I've had a, a good friend of mine was about to be raped by someone in this situation that she just let herself be entered into. And she just looked up at him and she just saw love in his eyes and she just let it come through her being, and he bawled and cried in her arms all night. What was gonna become a lifetime traumatizing experience potentially became a healing experience. Mm-hmm. And not that we all need to enter that level, but that's what's possible. Mm-hmm. You know, that there's actual safety in loving what is mm-hmm.

Rahi: mm-hmm . Yeah. I wanna piggyback on that because you know what, what really stood out in the way you guys facilitate was the repeated return to the safety of the container, the boundaries, the aftercare, the safe words, you know, like gauging within ourselves what is a yellow as opposed to a green and a red. And that's what allowed for the freedom and the unleashing of that primal energy in the space. Because at the whole, the whole time there's a consciousness that, you know, be aware of the yellow if the, if, if this person says yellow, you know, or if they say blue, I know, you know, that they're dissociated or, you know, so the container was so cl clean and conscientious towards the receiver's safety and that's what what provided the freedom

Tani: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm . Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You know, to us really that that's one of those places where light meets dark is a good container because when we set a really strong container and everybody's on the same page, which is really important that you know what, what you think is yellow means, and I think yellow means are not different. We're like really sure that they mean the same thing. So we both know how to respond if it comes up. Um, and for anyone who's maybe listening who doesn't know those terms, yellow is a request to slow down or lighten up on what's happening. Um, we use these, you know, color coded words to help with that and having a really strong container. Is it that that is sort of the, the light work in there, right? That's saying like, Hey, actually we really care about your safety.

Tani: We don't want you to get retraumatized mm-hmm. , we want everybody here to come through this more whole than you were before. More intact, feeling better in yourself than you did before. That's, that's that light work that's coming in and really holding that container. And then within that, when that's really strongly held, then like the dark explosions that can happen in there because we actually feel safe to go to those places in ourselves cuz we can trust ourselves more and we can trust our partners and we can trust the room then mm-hmm. , then it's like, then we can actually really go in there for the sake of the dark without the needing to change it with like, let's just discover what's here. Because I know if we, if we start to stray into territory that just, you know, isn't bad, but maybe doesn't work for the person that I'm partnered with, oh, then that, then we have the light, we have the container to hold us mm-hmm. and so, so to us it's like, it's in that cauldron where both are meeting the light in the dark in that place that, that yes. So much transformation can happen. Yeah. Yeah. So, so safety and container are such important pieces for us mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and how we teach and how hold

Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. It makes the whole thing work really. Um, you know, before, uh, in preparation for this call, I was going through my notes from our workshop in Boulder and there are a couple of things that I wanted to, to share that I jotted down. Letting go into the mystery of the animal body wisdom following core desires. The safer you take care of yourself, the deeper you can explore desires. Uh, it's a meditation of tracking sensations and sensation capacity in regards to voicing boundaries, feeling into, oh, this was interesting, like in the negotiation of boundaries, feeling into what would be a yes. Uh, if initially the response is a no do, are people surprised at how spiritual this work actually is? They might be coming to this work wanting to like, explore their sexual dark side, but then realize this work is so, you know, spiritual, it's really so healing and humane and, you know, we're really creating a safe container for those shamed and rejected parts of the inner child to be recognized and to be nourished and to be, you know, kind of brought out of the shadow.

Tani: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I, I really appreciate you seeing and speaking to that cause for both of us, it, it absolutely is. It's deeply spiritual and both of us have been on a, a lifetime spiritual path and we've both had very profound spiritual awakenings in our, in our lifetimes and absolutely that, that comes through in the work because it's such a big piece of both of us, uh mm-hmm. And it isn't necessarily overtly obvious sometimes from, from the outside that that's what we're up to. Mm-hmm. and I think, you know, the work lands for each person wherever, wherever they're at and whatever is Yes. The particular medicine that they're, that they're needing and wanting in that moment. And so for some people it is profoundly spiritual. It, it, it lands that way for many people and for some people it may not land that way. And however, however it lands is perfect .

Rahi: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, for our audience, I'd love, I'd, I'd love you guys to share, I remember at the end of the workshop you had shared how, you know, the Light Dark Institute is evolving, that you wanted to bring I think, more light and could help me understand like, what can people expect, um, as far as offerings that are available now and what you envision, uh, as far as how it's gonna evolve in the future.

Leslie: So one thing I'll say is, um, since the pandemic and covid we had, we're just starting up group workshops and we've been mm-hmm. , um, evolving those in, in new ways. So we're, we're coming, we're gonna be coming out with a host of new, um, workshops that are not fully ready yet to come out mm-hmm. , but we are still doing, um, what what has been like, our kind of first level entry and what we call embracing the darkness is, which is what you did, um, workshop. And yes, that's a three and a half day workshop group work.

Tani: But yeah, so at this moment our, our, you know, we're still running full, full steam with our, with our private work with the light dark experience again for individuals or couples. But the workshops at the moment, we're only offering them sort of for private communities. This is something that's, that's started where private groups are like, Hey, you know, there's, there we have this community, we want you to come teach us. Will you teach this workshop? And, and embracing the darkness really is a, it's an introductory workshop to the light dark work, but it's, again, our whole body of work is sort of in the deep end of the swimming pool. So it's not designed for, it's not really designed for, for people who are new to a personal growth journey, we don't recommend it. Uh, you know, we, we would recommend doing more light work first doing more mm-hmm.

Tani: trauma healing, more excavating of the past and you know, really resourcing some of the parts that are under-resourced. And then embracing the darkness is more designed for people that have already had a lot of that work under their belt and are ready to really touch some of the, the darker places that they haven't found approval for in, in other modalities that they've tried. So mm-hmm. , you know, that's, that's how we're still continuing to offer that work regarding kind of where we're going from here. You know, one of the, the really the, the light and dark metaphor kind of speaks to the heart of it that mm-hmm. that, and this is where I'll get a little more spiritual with it for a moment, which is there dark work can be seen as the path of pure infinite oneness, acceptance of everything that is as perfect.

Tani: And light work can be seen as having a little bit more to do with like the human heart and the way that our hearts care for things. And we're like, we see, we see pain, we see suffering in the world, and we want to impact it. We want to change it. We want to, you know, heal. Whether it's, you know, stopping child abuse or healing the, the what's being done to the, you know, to our planet on, on the nature level or, you know, stopping war. There's, there's so many places, you know, each individual has a different place where our, where our heart feels activated and mm-hmm. for us, one of the big curiosity points is how those pieces dance together. Mm-hmm. , for me personally, that's been a big piece of my, of my spiritual journey is around the places where the, the deep, the deep, deep knowledge that everything is perfect already as it is how that dances with my human heart that sees, you know, for me, I'm a big nature lover and, and when my, my, I feel trees and nature and animals as, as though they're my kin.

Tani: And so when I see trees being cut, there's this like, ah, there's this part of me that wants to act, that wants to do something and how to weave the knowing that it's all perfect and the part that wants to, to, to act from care. Yeah. So there, there are ways that that is, um, that, that is kind of coming through. And I feel like in our, in our work over the years we've been doing it the ever more nuanced ways of, of weaving. And really speaking to that joining point, well let me, let me just say one of the things that's coming through in our, in our future work as we move forward is we're excited to start doing workshops in nature more and in places that are natural settings and connected to the natural world. And actually really weave in exploration of the darkness that exists both in nature and between us and nature.

Tani: That there's so much there to explore around, you know, the, the ways that we fear the darkness of nature and then we need to control it and then we cut ourselves off from it because we're afraid to feel the wildness and the unpredictability. There's so much there. Yes. So that's one of the things that we're gonna be doing moving forward is really, really, uh, offering our work in nature and in ways that we get to explore the darkness, including through the sexuality and the, you know, the archetypes and all these other things that have always been part of it. And also really weaving it in with, you know, here's a major area where many of us feel disconnection or feel darkness, and how do we, how do we dance with that? So that's one of the things that's emerging. You wanna mm-hmm. .

Leslie: Yeah. Well, I just wanna speak to what we do currently have on offer. Sure. Besides mm-hmm. , if you're interested in exploring, having a private workshop for your community or your area, that's, that's something also you could reach out to us mm-hmm. about. Um, and, and cuz that's been kind of like our primary entry into group work lately. And, and we're moving more in that direction of just offering workshops in mm-hmm. in, in this nature, in this new context. So both of those are available light dark experiences, which are top thing for individuals and couples. We talked about that. Um, that happens by the way, in a, and we, it's a, it's a kink bed and breakfast. It's like a, it's

Tani: A, we have a

Leslie: Dungeon, we have a dungeon, it's a home with a dungeon. So it's a sweet, it's a, to us and we meet there and, and there's just all sorts of ways to play in the dark there that uh, we can kind of externalize the internal psychological things that are in there. Mm-hmm. , um, yeah.

Tani: Sarah Monterey, California. Mm-hmm. . And I wanna just briefly before you, before you carry on, I wanna weave back cuz you had a question about the couples l d e. And while we're on the subject of LDEs, I just wanna really briefly mention cuz you had asked, you know, is it primarily about kind of the sexual components of relationship or is Yeah. Other things as well? Mm-hmm. basically the way that couples LDEs work is that it's a, uh, the, there's a set of intentions for the relationship and then each coup, each individual gets a, creates their own set of intentions. So we're working both individuals, but cause we're really focused on the relationship, it varies. Mm-hmm. , every LDE is so individualized based on the, the, the individual or the couple that we're working with because it's completely tailor-made. It's not a group workshop.

Tani: Mm-hmm. It's completely made for that, that person or that couple mm-hmm. , I would say most couples are including an element of, you know, their, their sexual relating and wanting to find new ways or improve or reconnect or whatever it is. And there are other things that are coming up as well for most couples. So, so it really is just depends on the couple mm-hmm. where we're going with that. And then there was one other thing that I wanted to, uh, mention regarding a little bit more about how we work and how we actually do what we do. Because it might be relevant for people if they're like, okay, but so what, what are you actually doing with all of it? . Yeah. How are you doing it? What, what's happening in those rooms right behind the closed Right and, you know, a lot of it, we can't get into the details just cuz it's so, it is so varied, but I wanted to just name that there are two primary pathways that we use in our work.

Tani: One we call life as play, and the other we call dark awakening. And those will give you a little bit of a sense of, of how we do what we do. And so I'll speak to the life as play part, which is basically, you know, regarding darkness, regarding the things that we have disapproval for in ourselves or in the world. It's so easy to have a sense of those things as a big deal, as heavy as like wrong. And there's all these stories that kind of crystallize around it till it can feel like really intense big deal. And so part of what we do in our work is we bring in humor and we bring in levity and we bring in a sense of like, you know what, this is normal and it's no big deal. Like, okay, you're needy, so we're, we're all needy.

Tani: Like, I'm so needy. You're like, okay, like you're controlling. Like, you know, like, I wanna control too. I wanna control him. I wanna control his situation. And like really bringing in the kind of playful spirit behind it till everybody's laughing and, and getting a chance to just be like, oh, okay. Right. This thing I've been like all my life, I've been like, oh my God, don't let anybody see me as stiff. But then all of a sudden it's like so stiff and then it just becomes funny and it becomes not a big deal anymore. Or,

Leslie: Or erotic. It can go

Tani: Erotic too. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so much, so much of that heaviness and that kind of big deal feeling can just kind of melts away when we bring in that humor. Mm-hmm. . So we bring that in a lot in our workshops and in the field of like, there's a whole bunch of us in the room and all of a sudden everybody's being needy. It's like, oh, right, okay. Maybe that's okay. Or, you know, in, in our work with couples for example, we bring it in a lot too. That's one of the ways we work with couples is like, you know, he, this one's got that pattern, that one's got that pattern. They both get really locked in when they're in that spot. And what happens if we get really over the top and exaggerated and ridiculous about those things, and all of a sudden they're like on the floor in, in, in stitches laughing about it. Mm-hmm. . So humor is a big part of what we do, and that's the life is play piece, humor and levity and just lightening it up.

Leslie: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so much of what that can lead to is like the very thing that was stopping intimacy and connection is now the thing causing intimacy and connection through playfulness. Um, and that's really, I would say life is play is really about how we relate to others outside of ourselves. Um, and the other pathway that we're, we, we really use is what we call dark awakening, which I've spoke to a little bit, but love to put it in this context, which is yeah. Really about like discovering those, you know, those dark parts of self, those dark parts that judge shame, feel ashamed, feel hurt by the world, feel victimized by the world, feel disgusted for the world, and wish it would all go away, that destroy everything, all of those parts inside. Mm-hmm. there. Mm-hmm. are, are with dark awakening when we, when we really step into, embody and own a part inside of ourselves.

Leslie: And the way I think about this is like, there's, you could you, I could put the spiritual lens on this, and I have had some profound experiences in dark awakening where all of a sudden something else was looking through my eyes and that something else had an entirely different identity than I ever imagined myself to have. And through that, through that experience, I got to see, oh, all my little fears, all my little conditionings are nothing compared to what it is to look through these eyes and to see the world as mine, for example. And the way I think about this and talk about this is in to developmental psychology. When we, when as we, as we grow up, we get conditioned and traumatized at certain moments, we say, okay, that part's no good. If you're that part, you're a bad person and no one will love you.

Leslie: Basically is always the basic message. Um, and so that part gets put under wraps. Okay. I'm not that it gets put in the dark. And what's amazing about Dark Awakening is when you get inside of and really embody a part that's been there, you know, from the light perspective, that's a wounded part of yourself because it's been, it's been held down, it's been repressed, it hasn't been able to come forth in the world. But from a dark perspective, that's a protected part of yourself. And what I mean by that is everything that happened after that moment of trauma to that part of yourself, what's on the other side of that darkness has, is, is has not been conditioned. In other words, there's been a part of you protected from conditioning. And so when we get into these younger parts, especially when we get into the infantile aspects of our psychology, we get into places that have so much liberation, so much freedom. It's like, whoa, nothing I was taught is true, nothing. And now I can step into the reality of what is true for me. And that that's a, that's, that is kinda like what we're really headed towards when we talk about dark work and dark awakening.

Rahi: Mm.

Leslie: And, and the last thing I'll mention is, uh, I do coaching If you're interested in just like how to just bring this into your life, it's very helpful with this work to have an embodied experience to really get it. But if you're clear about what you're wanting and where you're, you know, what you wanna explore and turn over, I offer coaching that helps get inside of and play with those dark aspects and then how to integrate them. Mm-hmm. And then how to like really empower your life,

Rahi: Uh, at the workshop was witnessing each of you really embody the exploration of, in the demos and with some of the assistance. And it was really exciting to see the example of you guys embodying these dark types and how they can interact with, with others in play. So I can imagine how incredibly valuable that, that coaching would be when you guys mentioned that you wanna move into including more of nature and the wildness and the, and the darkness of just going back to the theme of everything is sexual and nature, when we really witness nature and the beauty, the ferocity and the gentleness, it's so sexual. Like it's a sexual as Yeah. As, as you can get. And so I'm so happy to hear that you guys are moving into that realm. Mm-hmm.

Tani: . Yeah, absolutely.

Rahi: Well, thank you both so much for your service and all of the really unique and conscientious offerings. You know, this sincerity and the, um, I was just so impressed by your facilitation and how you guys walk your talk and, you know, the safe container and just how you layered things. So, so well for all of us to, you know, really have the kind of breakthroughs that we did. So thank you guys for being on the podcast and for, and for doing what you're doing. I love it.

Tani: Thank you so much, Rocky. Thank you. It's been such a pleasure connecting with you. Uh, you know, we, we just had such appreciation for getting to know you more deeply through that workshop and such reverence for the work that you are doing in the world as well, which we know is so important. And we can just vouch for the caliber of you as a human from the connection that we've had so far. Just grateful that you are out there as such a, you know, high integrity, caring, heart-centered human offering, the powerful work that you offer. So thank you as well.

Rahi: Notice how the themes we've explored in this interview are landing in your body right now. What sensations do you notice? What feelings or emotions are present with you? Are there aspects you're aware of that have been disowned, shamed, or judged that may be wanting and feel ready to be recognized, honored and integrated back into wholeness? Are there aspects of your sexuality that have been in the shadow, repressed, muted, that you sense need a voice and rightful place in your body? And at the table of your sexual wholeness? Links to the Light Dark Institute and to my wonderful internal family systems therapist, Mical and my wonderful colleague Deanna, who is also an IFS practitioner, are all listed in the show notes as references for you. If you enjoy the podcast, please consider leaving a review on Apple or Spotify. Until next time, take good care.