Rahi: Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, a sexological bodyworker, and creator of somatic sexual Wholeness. Today's interview is a real gift as we hear from Christiane Pelus and the fruits bared from her ongoing inquiry and practices of rewilding, of questioning what is truly authentic to our nature as ecologically embodied beings, as well as creatures of belonging within our respective mycelium networks, as opposed to what has been conditioned and subjected to pressures of fitting in, and how this shows up in our embodiment. As you listen to our interview, exploring the ecological state of our existence, cohabitation and belonging, I would invite you to question for yourself how these themes can be applied to your sexuality and erotic embodiment. Can we allow for the authentic desires of the body to be fully expressed as they are? Can we accept and celebrate what feels non-normative about our erotic desires? And can we hold space for a playground of rewilding from the inside out and from the ground up? By nurturing the rich soil and soul of our nature, both essentially curious creatures as well as interconnected communities and tribes?

Rahi: I am feeling tingliness in my feet and excitement in my heart, and just a joy emanating from my heart space as I am here with Christiane, "the going" Pelmas, that's my nickname for her. Um, okay, so a little bit about Christiane. So, um, you know, I first got turned onto Christian by her Fabulous Guide, uh, her authored book called "Trauma, A Practical Guide to Working With Body and Soul." But more recently, we shared a retreat space, a co-created retreat space up, uh, uh, at Salt Spring Island, and got to have an experiential shared experience of a lot of the themes we'll be exploring today. So, um, so Christiane, I'm just gonna like do an intro so people have a context of, of your background. So Christiane is the author, co-author of three fabulous books, the Aforementioned "Trauma Practical Guide to Working With Body and Soul," um, which is so succinct.

Rahi: It's all just the essentials, and I love it. Recommended highly to anyone who works with, uh, trauma in therapy or sexuality, um, or just wants to understand their own embodiment. Uh, you know, a lot better. Two other books, "Women's Wisdom Guidebook and Card Deck", also wonderful. And it's really a collaborative of, of culture perspective, uh, and experiences from all around the world. It's really fabulous. And then she contributed to the anthology "Healers of the Edge," and she's currently gestating, uh, a new offering that is eminent. Mm-Hmm. . Um, she's the founder of the Institute for Erotic Intelligence, and the One Woman Movement and Project and co-founder of the Verdant Collective. Interwoven throughout her endeavors are themes that involve erotic, embodiment, nurturing, community and belonging, honoring and reclaiming our feminine essence in nature, sexuality, and intimacy as ways for rewilding ourselves on each other and listening and cultivating relationship with our ancestors, with nature, and returning to our true wild and undomesticated essence. Christian, it's great to see, and thanks for coming onto the podcast.

Christiane: It's so fun to be here. Rahi,

Rahi: I thought I would start with this quote, and it's a quote I picked up somewhere, uh, amongst your many, uh, expressions of these themes that are so vital, I think, not only to our existence, but they're really vital to our, like, integrity and honoring of our nature. So, um, the quote is, our souls Speak a first language, one, which is indigenous to all life. Remembering this language is the key to self-love, to our purpose, our passion, and our power. I would love, besides hearing from your dog, I would also love to hear, um, what, what this quote like, what, what this means to you, like our, how our souls speak, this first language that is the key to our passion and our power.

Christiane: Hmm.

Rahi: Yeah. What is this first language?

Christiane: What is this first language? Well, I'll, I, maybe I'm just gonna sort of dance around it, but, um, our, our first language is the language of our belonging. And, you know, we just spent quite a lot of time on Salt Spring really exploring belonging, and, and we all come to it with a different sense of it. Like, some people say, we have to find our belonging, and, and some people say, we have to cultivate our belonging. And, you know, my shtick is, no, we don't need to. We just have to remember that we belong. It's very simple. It's a change of perspective. We belong, we're here, we belong ecologically. It's a, it's an ecological fact. It's a physiological fact. It's not a philosophical moment or, you know, a rev, a revelatory, uh, situation in a workshop experience in a workshop. It's, it's just an acceptance that we belong.

Christiane: And there's an indigenous language of belonging. Mm-Hmm. . And it's, it, it requires that we allow that at all times. All things, all things. The tree outside my window, the sunflower in front of it, the, the gold, the goldfinches that are feeding on the sunflower, the puppy playing with my older dog. Hmm. Everyone, all the wild ones are speaking that language. And we know that language. Our ancestors had tremendous ceremony and ritual focused on remembering that language and keeping them true to that language. And one thing domesticated culture has done, society conformist to consumer society has done, is to completely erase that language. And that's strategic, that's a capitalist maneuver to erase that language and replace it with the language of fitting in.

Rahi: Mm mm mm-Hmm.

Christiane: And, and so, you know, so, uh, if I'm, if I'm getting close to coming to, you know, some sort of concrete answer that it's, it, that, that indigenous language, that indigenous con, uh, conversation and language is the language of our belonging, and we all know it. Mm-Hmm. And likely much of our malaise, whether it's, uh, anhedonia, whether it's, uh, despair, whether it's rage, um, whether it's depression, whether it's, whatever it is, um, is, is a response, a very healthy critical, ecologically critical response to that bereft man.

Rahi: Mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. There, there are many important, um, themes that you just touched upon. Um, the, the practices and rituals of indigenous people to celebrate that sense of belonging is one theme. Um, the capitalistic kind of consumerist society that the structure that, that we have been conditioned by, and that, you know, it's like we grew up in the soup, so that sometimes it's hard to recognize the soup from, you know, like our, our authentic essence. That's like another really important theme. And then I, I wanna, I want to explore like some of the practices that you support your clients and communities with to return to that sense of embodiment, uh, erotic essence, uh, and sense of belonging. Mm-Hmm. .

Christiane: Mm-Hmm. . Beautiful.

Rahi: Um, yeah. So, you know, going, going back, uh, you know, I think the first and third points are kind of connected. So, you know, as you shared the indigenous peoples, you know, were steeped in rituals and practices, um, that were so community based. So, you know, as shared that reflect our nature. Um, and it seems to me like you have brought or you have learned, um, the wisdom of these practices. You have, um, uh, facilitated in some of the community, uh, gatherings that, that you have been a part of. Can you speak to, um, what are some ways that like listeners can start to cultivate within their own communities and tribes, rather than getting together and, you know, having a cocktail or a potluck? Like what are some rituals that are very simple that will really foster that, that sense of reminding us of, of our nature?

Christiane: Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting Rahi that you say, rather than getting together and, and having a cocktail or a potluck, there would be nothing. Those practices could be Mm-Hmm. In the category of what you're, you know, of, of that reclamation Mm-Hmm. behavior, reclaiming some of the, the practices that keep us well, that keep us embedded. And, um, and, and not just speaking that language, that indigenous language of belonging, but actually letting it evolve and iterate instead of devolve and atrophy. It could be, you know, I, I I think it is so simple, and you, you said that, you know, it is, it's part of the problem is that it is so simple. We keep thinking it's, it's monumentally complex, and it involves higher education, and it involves laborious workshops, and it involves the gurus and experts. And it, you know, it involves deep soul searching and discomfort in, you know, digging around in my wound.

Christiane: And like, you know, the phrase is doing the hard work. You know, how many times do we hear somebody say, oh, I just met so and so. They're so, they're really great. They're just, man, they're doing the hard work. . Mm-Hmm. I just like, ugh, that sounds awful. Just what does that mean? Mm-Hmm. mm-Hmm. . And, and, and, and actually our wellbeing and our robust experience of, of our belonging is probably so much more homegrown than that, quite literally, and quite deliberately, so much more homegrown. So, so for me, uh, one of the things that was so critical is for me, is that I shift my therapy practice to one of mentorship and guiding. And as I've gotten older, I've added the words eldering and grandmothering. Mm. Like, I'm the grandmother. I'm the grandmother you come to, and I'm not gonna hold myself up here. I'm not up here.

Christiane: I'm farther along Mm-Hmm. And, and I'm wiser, no doubt. Mm-Hmm. But, but I'm not up here. I'm not an expert and I'm not a guru. Um, and, and, and, and oddly, I might also be directive, like good old fashioned grandmothers might be like, that's a bad choice. Yeah. And, and I'll tell you why I think that's a bad choice. And, and will I love you if you make that choice? Absolutely. Will I stand by you if you make that choice? A hundred percent. Mm-Hmm. But let me just tell you, I think that's a bad choice. And, and, you know, therapy with its back here listening and inviting and contemplating and, and it's, it's a kind of anaerobic environment. And so, so one of the things I, I had to do was just shift, give up my license and shift what I call myself and sit with people in a much more, in a much more kind of, I mean, literally hands-on way, but also Yeah.

Christiane: Hands on, metaphorically, uh, to replicate that sense of if you have something that's troubling you, Rahi, you're just gonna walk across the compound and you're gonna knock on my door. So I practice out of my home. You knock on my door, you come into my home, you know, whatever I'm cooking, you can smell. If I'm doing laundry, you can hear it. Mm-Hmm. If other people are here, they're gonna be here, and we're gonna go and sit down and, and have our time together. But there's a way of just bring it home. Mm-Hmm. , bring it intimate, bring it local. Mm-Hmm. . So, you know, so that, that was a personal and professional decision I made. Mm-Hmm. . But also inviting my community into community. And we have this idea that community, we have this very interesting idea about what community means and looks like these days. It's very curated.

Christiane: And it's like, will you go to my, my Pilates in my yoga class? We, and we practice the same meditation. Oh my God, we're practically siblings. Let's, let's, you know, you're part of my community. And that's not actually how community works. That's, that's a little bit antithetical to community, in fact. 'cause community is a robust, diverse ecology that iterates it's, it's rubbing up against itself. It's, it's pushing, it's challenging. And the very nature of it is that it, it evolves because of that. Mm-Hmm. . And so, you know, to have, so I host gatherings here, different gatherings every month that are on the calendar. Anyone can see them. They're drop in, one of them is free. And then the other are two, our donation. One of them is just in my home. And we, we, we have actually a potluck Mm-Hmm. And the other two are around the fire in the kka that I have here in my, my land.

Christiane: And it's drop in. I have no idea who's gonna show up. Has it backfired occasionally? Mm-Hmm. I guess it depends on how you look at that. Mm-Hmm. I've gotten some live wires around the fire. Some people don't know how to sit and listen. But how will we learn if we don't include everyone? And the nature of the indigenous community is that everyone's welcome around the fire, and you learn your place. Mm-Hmm. And you learn your place, not because you're shamed, but because you're mentored. Mm-Hmm. And, and so these are the kinds of things that we are gonna have to remember how to do, and we're gonna have to do them. Mm-Hmm. . And the last thing I'll say about this is that it is, I've been doing the community dinners. Just, I just open my door. It starts at six 30. I have no idea who's gonna come through the door. Wow. And, uh, and we gather and we have dinner, and it's not curated at all, but it's also not guided. It's not facilitated. I see. We're just being social with each other. Yeah. It's time to not be so serious and earnest and, um, and over and over again now for, let's see how long those have been going on for, um, 10 years, those have been happening. And over and over again, people are in tears about how extraordinary it is that I open my door and have this every month.

Christiane: And that, to me is shocking. And, and, you know, if there were like a deep, dark pit of despair, for me, that's one of the things that would have me go into it. Because rahi, think about it, people are in tears, overwhelmed with the how do you do it, Christiane? How do you, I mean, it's so extraordinary what you do. And, and it clearly is, it's clearly extraordinary. Mm-Hmm. . And it's devastating that, that it's extraordinary.

Rahi: Right. Right. Yeah. I feel like, I feel like you're really speaking to the other theme of, um, dismantling the structures within this capitalistic consumer society by getting so simple and really holding a container to allow for the organic ecological process to, to be alive, you know, and, and to breathe really. And, and allowing, um, that process, the space to be what it is and what, what it will be. Mm-Hmm. , which is so antithetical to the top down, you know, mind control, structured, you know, need to maximize or be efficient or, you know, whatever it is.

Christiane: Totally. Yeah. It is, it is antithetical. I I really like to say that, uh, there are very few either ORs mm-Hmm. in, in the, in the cosmos, in the grand Mm-Hmm. great cosmos. Yeah. Uh, and, and belonging and fitting in are one of them. Like, if, if you are belonging, you are actively working, you're actively undermining the musculature of fitting in. And if you are working towards fitting in Mm. You are actively undermining the musculature of belonging. They're antithetical endeavors.

Rahi: Yeah. That's really fascinating, that distinction and that, um, observation. Um, because it is true. They are antithetical, aren't they? Mm-Hmm. One is a, is an effortful doing, and one is an acceptance of, of our what is like our, our primal nature.

Christiane: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And that effortful doing is a very prescribed doing. Mm-Hmm. It is that I must change my unique and ecologically essential shape Mm-Hmm. my never before seen shape to fit into an already existing shape of your design or desire. You know, you being the culture, society, the tennis club, my, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. Um, and, and they don't, in order to do that, I have to cha I have to, I have to slice Mm-Hmm. Something off, and I have to deny a thing, and I have to subordinate a thing. Mm-Hmm. . And I have to make wrong and shame a thing. Mm-Hmm. . And I have to just kind of extrude and fit and squish and pretend myself into something that I am not.

Rahi: Yeah. And you know, that is when trauma occurs. Yes.

Rahi: Right? Yeah. When there is an outer agenda imposed onto the organic nature of the body and what the body's desire is. Mm-Hmm. . So, um, yeah. I would love to, I, I love this. I love everything that you're illuminating. And I would love to , I hope I'm not applying this top town approach by like, having my mind wanting to like shape this conversation . Um, but because the podcast is organic sexuality, I would love to meditate on, uh, how this applies to rewilding, our erotic and ecologically embodied natures. Mm-Hmm. , because my God, I mean, I think, you know, I mean, we, those of, you know, I mean, those of us who are privileged enough to hold space for clients, see the effects of, um, I think my, I don't know how else to call it, but mainstream parenting where people from, you know, the, the, the most, you know, the greatest love in their hearts want their children to thrive.

Rahi: But I feel like in this society, it comes with this wanting to thrive within this structure. And so we need to train these little infants in certain ways before they have a chance to really organically find their own way. Yes. And when that applies to one's sensuality and exploration of their senses and pleasure, it can, it can really, uh, you know, lead to, you know, a very, you know, kind of two gendered normative, you know, like, this is the right way. You know, girls need to be this way, boys need to be this way. And, you know, all of the things that we're seeing finally, some, uh, resistance and, and, um, progress against. But as far as like rewilding our true undomesticated essence with sexuality and embodiment, um, as a mother and as a le and as a space holder in this field, what, what do you feel like are things that our audience members can start leaning into or exploring? One, to give themselves permission to, let's say, lean into this desire which felt shameful or wrong, or engage in, in, you know, their friends or lover ships in ways that are more edgy, but more authentic to their desire and nature.

Christiane: Well, how is it okay if we get, you know, more personal here? Uh,

Rahi: Of course.

Christiane: You know, I mean, you're, you're

Rahi: If, if that's where the ecological

Christiane: Actually say no,

Rahi: Yes. Yes. If that's where the mycelium roots want to go, let's go there.

Christiane: Because, you know, I, I think, you know, that one of the things that was my desire in participating in this, in this retreat on Salt Spring with the six of us, we, we, we all had an agenda. And then that was a, that was a, you know, a kind of high mind agenda. We, we had a particular desire to explore the realm of, of, of, um, psychedelics and somatic sex education. Right. With seasoned practitioners. Would, you know, is there a way that we could imagine a world in which that those, those really rather disparate universes, could, could, or experiences could, could be woven together, um, practically. And, and, and that was great. And, and I had my own agenda, one of which, you know, some of which was that I wanted to apprentice to this idea of erotic friendships. Yes. And this is, so this is actually, you know, we can take my example very specifically, but we can also extrapolate from it that just noticing the ways we've been shaped to compartmentalize our human experience.

Christiane: And like, this is what this is, and this is what I do over here with that person. This is what this is, and this is what I do with these people right here. Mm-Hmm. . And then this is what this is, and this is what I do. And, and nowhere in any wild universe does that exist, you know? Mm-Hmm. arrows, arrows, aero's main idea is says who, you know, it's main function is Oh, yeah. Right? Oh, yeah. These never, this doesn't ever go over here. And we don't ever do that with them. And, you know, it's just that, that the world, the cos the cosmology of possibility is such that it wants to disrupt and, you know, and co-create and make a mess and see what's possible.

Rahi: See what's possible. Yes.

Christiane: And so it seems, you know, for me, for my part in my ongoing rewilding work on domestication work it right at the moment, among other things, it, it has to do with, wow, I do have these compartments and I don't like them. I might choose, I might choose after going through this wonderful apprenticeship to that, you know, my life might not look much different from the outside, but I don't have these compartments Mm-Hmm. that are, you know, these steel boxes placed in the, you know, in my, in my, in my fertile forest that Mm-Hmm. , you know, tell me, thou shalt not overhear, and thou shalt over there. Mm-Hmm. . So, so the idea of erotic friendships being, you know, is it possible for me to extend my experience of the, the tending of my, my physical sexual, erotic nature? Mm-Hmm. My body, my soul, my spirit. Mm-Hmm. with people I'm not partnering with, with whom I might not even have an overt physical kind of, uh, lustful attraction. Mm. Is it possible for me to do that with people who were my former students? Mm. Oh my

Rahi: God.

Christiane: That's crossing all sorts of boundaries and totally, Mm-Hmm. messing me up. Mm-Hmm. , is it, is it possible? And we're talking about in a field of deep, intelligent consent. Right. Um, but, but you know, what happens if I start to disrupt and break down some of the barriers that were put there as you have shared, you know, Mm-Hmm. with parental, the barriers parents put up, were put there even with the most wonderful and loving intention. Mm-Hmm.

Rahi: . Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. So, um, I'd love that you are being real and bringing your personal experience into this, because that's really, um, what it requires for communities and tribes to be, um, to foster that ecology, is to really be transparent and real with each other. Totally. And, and, and I'm hearing that this, this examination of these, this categorization that really happens reflexively, I mean, I notice in my own mind, you know, when I meet people, you know, like, it happens. And then I'm like, well, why is that the case? Is that really true? And questioning that, and, you know, I mean, just to your point earlier, like Eros, the nature of Eros is, uh, chaos and possibility and like we we're all sexual beings. And if you would just accept that, then there's sexual potential with anyone.

Christiane: Yes. Mm-Hmm. , yes. There is sexual potential with anyone. And, and yeah. And when you get right down to it in terms of erotic nature and, and, you know, and the kind of flavor and tone of wildness, there are gonna be certain people who, you know, certain humans who are, who really do a beautiful job of tending to each other's erotic, nature, sexually, erotic nature. But different aspects of us come out with different, you know, with different personalities. And can we open up the field enough to, to, to imagine that my, my sexuality, my intimate sexual expression, and that landscape isn't just for this one person. It's actually the wellbeing of that is a community endeavor. Mm-Hmm. .

Rahi: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I think what you're, I think what you just shared is so true. And for some reason in our society today, it feels very like , like a rebellious, like wild, you know? But it is so true. It's like when, when we look at nature and we are expressions of nature, you know, the forest is, and its fullest, healthiest when it is all chaotic and wild and intersecting and, and just really responding to the other elements in nature. Yes. And it's like, we have the capacity to do that with all sexual beings, whether they're human or not, you know, just like the plant world and nature. And we explored that, you know, in our retreat, you know, just in imbibing with the energy of nature and making love and being made love too by, by elements of nature. I mean, it's, it's everywhere. And I think like when we take the agenda or like kind of the mental, I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's preferences or identity, you know, sexual identity affirmation or like, when we take any kind of like, agenda out of it, it can't not, but expand our experience. Yeah.

Rahi: You know, like any kind of engagement is gonna Absolutely. Teach us something more about our potential and our, our essence and, and possibility. Mm-Hmm. .

Christiane: Mm-Hmm. . Totally. And I think that's one of the reasons that psychedelics have been so impactful for many folks is that they, they really, they, they, they kind of pick us up where our mental efforting at identifying those, those enclosures, you know, those arbitrary enclosures. Yes. They, they, they pick us up Right. Where we, you know, have sort of petered out. Like, I can't

Rahi: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

Christiane: , no, I can't, I can't see, I can't see the woods for the trees here. I can't see the enclosure I've been given and that I've adopted 100% and that I'm now forming my life around. And, you know, and entheogens in particular, but psychedelics just, they, they, they start there and they toss us into the land of, you know, oh my God, I don't know anything. Everything's upside down. Mm-Hmm. , I, I'm, I'm, I'm seeing this tree as the most exquisite lover, and it's a tree, and, and I don't even, and it's, and there's not even a questioning of that.

Rahi: Yes. There's

Christiane: Not even a questioning of that.

Rahi: Yes, yes. Or, yeah. I, yeah, I, I get really excited. Um, I mean, as far as like throwing that societal top down in post, uh, structure out the window, like I think psychedelics is such a tremendous aid, you know, obviously also in creating new neuropathways and I think somatic pathways in the body. Yes. Um, like I love, you know, I love taking, um, uh, psilocybin before going to ecstatic dance because I find that my body is dancing in all these new kinds of patterns Mm-Hmm. and movements. And, you know, it just kind of like, opens, opens things up beyond the past patterns. Um, you know, I feel like we're touching upon this Margaret Atwood quote, uh, which I know has been dear to your dear to your heart. And the quote is to stop seeing things for what they are called Mm-Hmm. . And instead see them as they are. Mm-Hmm.

Christiane: ,

Rahi: I feel like that's what we're speaking to.

Christiane: Yeah, absolutely. That, that's, that's the essence of rewilding. It's, it's the, you know, it's the essence of says who

Rahi: Mm-Hmm.

Christiane: . Mm-Hmm. . I might come out with the same, you know, not everything gets just tossed out and, and Right, right.

Rahi: Burn

Christiane: To the ground. Some things are like, yeah, that's actually true about me, and that's true about the world and how I see the world and, and, and my place in the world. But, but I, but it comes from my direct experience rather than, as you said, top down Mm-Hmm. or outside in Mm-Hmm. . It comes from my visceral, intimate, somatic spiritual experience of myself in the world. I gathered the data, I verified the data.

Rahi: Yes. Absolutely. I, I feel like there's certain elements that I wanna underscore in our, in our exploration here. Like one is, you know, how simple, um, it can be to lean into and invite the rewilding experience as, as we hold space for, um, community gatherings. Mm-Hmm. . There doesn't have to be, you know, as you said, some kind of program or agenda or, you know, it, it's just a space. It's just a, a healthy invited, warm space for the ecology of community to unfurl. Mm-Hmm. . But the other thing that I think is also important is, you know, what you're sharing about the, the transparency of, of us to show up and to be honest with ourselves about our desires Mm-Hmm. to be honest with ourselves about our desires and our yearnings and our wantings with each other. Mm-Hmm. can really reveal those kind of imposed mental constraints for what they are, and that they're just all in the head. Mm-Hmm. .

Christiane: Yeah.

Rahi: They don't have to be a lived in reality.

Christiane: Yes. Yes.

Rahi: So, um, I wanna talk about, um, the, the ethics course. The embodied ethics course. Um, 'cause I have some friends who've taken it. But before we go there, Christian, I wanna ask you, um, you know, as you are engaging in this juicy, beautiful apprenticeship of exploring your own personal life and examining what, what has been in the way of your authentic eros expressing itself for exploring its nature? What have you recognized as the things that have gotten in the way of that, that maybe were in your blind spots before you took on this apprenticeship?

Christiane: Mm.

Rahi: Because I think there, there, I mean, we all have those blind spots and we all have this, I mean, especially those of us who are in the therapy field and have a lot of clients and hold space and, you know, we're kind of put up on a pedestal or seen in a certain way, and it can be very limiting when we buy into the way other people are putting us up on a pedestal. Yeah.

Christiane: Yeah. Right. Uh, oh, I, i, this is a topic, this is a terrain. It's not even a topic. It's an entire terrain that is so juicy and Mm-Hmm. and alive for me. Mm-Hmm. . Um, because it's, it is, it is absolutely the terrain of ethics as I see ethics. Um, yeah. And, and so, you know, you're, so you're asking me what are some of the things I personally am, am discovering and, and, and exploring in this place here. And for me, definitely what I run up against is the, the, the dismantling of the externally imposed Mm-Hmm. boundaries and, you know, the thou shalt nots

Rahi: Yes.

Christiane: That I, in that I inherit from my culture, some of which I don't wanna just toss out. Sure. Some of it, some of which I actually just wanna keep. And some of them I wanna tweak and, you know, refine for myself. Some of 'em I wanna utterly toss out so that I require of myself, that I build my own musculature, my own internal musculature, rather than some external scaffolding I'm relying on of Oh, yeah. Oh, we got to this place. I'm not supposed to do that. And Right. And I, there's no personal responsibility at all. There's nothing internal that just happened there. Yeah. Yeah. It's an external Oh, yeah. I'm not supposed to do that. This is what I do in that situation. Mm-Hmm. Because I, I don't wanna get it wrong.

Rahi: Mm-Hmm.

Christiane: . Mm-Hmm. . Um, so, so for me, when it comes to who it is that I would even begin to imagine I could be erotic friends with, you know, that could be somebody that I would just, you know, casually make out with and, and somebody that I might even just, you know, sort of more, more, um, more practically go to bed with, you know, somebody I actually have sex with or make love with, who's a friend, who's a, who's a, who's a friend, who's a colleague, um, who's not a partner Mm-Hmm. or, or a girlfriend or a boyfriend who's not, you know, um, I run into the whole, well, I've been here for 30 years. I'm a leader in the community. I've, I feel like I have been the mentor or therapist to at least half of the poll population of Boulder. Yes. If I haven't been their therapist or mentor directly, I've been their partners, or I am their sister or brothers, or I, you know, Mm-Hmm. . So that means that I can't do anything with anyone here. Right.

Rahi: I

Christiane: Can only do things with people who are very far away, who I've never had anything to do with other than, you know, and, and so in terms of my exploration, I've, I've had to, I've had to say, um, says who

Rahi: Says who. Yes.

Christiane: Who, and that's so edgy because I as a, as a nurse person Mm-Hmm.

Rahi:

Christiane: Take my role of responsibility so seriously. Yes. And I don't wanna change that.

Rahi: Yes.

Christiane: But I don't want it to be limiting. I, I want it to be enlivening. I want it to be, you know, an an act of a role of nobility rather than a, a thing I'll hide behind. Right. Or a thing that, that, that, that diminishes my capacity to be vibrantly nourished.

Rahi: Right. You want it to be expansive. Mm-Hmm. , because it will nourish all of your clients in the circles that you share with and how you show up. I mean, it's, it'll be an overwhelm. Oh, overflowing. Well, mm-Hmm. of wisdom and energy Right. Rather than a constrained one. Mm-Hmm. . But it is a real dismantling because Mm-Hmm. , you know, 30 years of, you know, I mean, an evolving position, uh, of, and stature, and Yes. It's almost like the more experienced you have, the more, you know things are being projected upon you by, and that's so wonderful to recognize, like, what is authentic to your nature Yeah. And what's, you know, could be antithetical to your nature. Yes.

Christiane: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. and I, we'll have to get together in another year because I'm so new here. I couldn't even tell you what I'm really discovering. I'm just still in the sort of Mm

Rahi: Mm you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Christiane: Disorienting phase. Disorienting phase.

Rahi: Yeah. Well, I, I, I, I feel I can confidently say that if any listeners in Boulder are hearing this podcast right now, they're gonna be lining up for your monthly potluck, and very excited to test your, your newfound like boundary expansion

Christiane: Practice. , I haven't made out with anybody at my potluck yet.

Rahi: Well, yeah. But just wait, just wait. Um, that's awesome. That's so awesome. And Christiane, I do feel like, um, it's critical that, you know, that we do this Mm-Hmm. , you know, because we are examples really. I mean, not only as somatic sex educators, but as, um, I mean, I don't, you know, like the word leader is just so weird. But, uh, you know, we're more public and as, as examples of what is possible. Yeah. Um, I think it, it does have a ripple effect. Yeah. And so I think it's,

Christiane: It absolutely does. Yep.

Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. So wonderful. So wonderful. Yeah. Um, and thank you for being so transparent with our audiences and sharing your process. It's really beautiful. Yes. Um, so I wanted to ask you, because I, you know, I was so excited about your Embodied Ethics course, and I have friends who have taken it. Um, and because we're kind of like on this theme anyhow, I would, I would love to hear more about, um, what it is and what it, what is the invitation in the embodied eth the Erotically Embodied Ethics course for people who show up to examine within their own lives?

Christiane: Mm-Hmm. . Well, you know, I might, I'll repeat myself, but I'll repeat myself now in this specific context. And, and that is that, um, as you know, I've been involved in remediation and mediation and, and, and repair and transformative justice and restorative justice processes for, for, for a long time now, um, across the practitioner modalities. Mm-Hmm. . And, um, and, and what I can safely say is that our, our ethical guidelines across modality aren't working Mm-Hmm. They're not stopping us from completely and egregiously falling out of our seats and misusing our power. Mm-Hmm.

Christiane: And, um, and so, so that, you know, that has someone like me say, because, you know, because I'm trying to see things as they are not, as they're called. Um, it, it immediately has me asking, what are we, what are we not, what conversation aren't we having? And how are we not approaching ethics? And what are we not doing that we need to start doing? And so my, the Embodied Ethics courses that I offer, and they're, each of them, is different just as a response to what's happening in the, in the, in the Times. Mm-Hmm. Um, it's a, it's an attempt to at least begin to isolate the conversations we need to be having. So I don't make any promises. It, it's not a thing where you're gonna come and, you know, become like ethics superman or Ethics superwoman. Yeah. Super person. It's, it's, can we, in some cases, people have shared, oh my, I feel even less tethered, but somehow more exhilarated than I, than I was before.

Christiane: Mm-Hmm. , I don't feel more ethical. I feel, I feel like I'm questioning everything. And to me, that is ethical. Right. Um, so, so it, so it's, it's a desire to come up with a different context and intimate experience of ethics. 'cause when we think of ethics, we don't think intimate. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , we think punitive. We think Mm-Hmm. a fear, a fear of getting it wrong. Fear of being, um, uh, you know, castigated in some way. Fear of being, um, uh, what's, you know, what, whatever the, whatever the word is, would be across professions of censured in some way. Mm-Hmm.

Rahi:

Christiane: From an, from an authority that is distant and disembodied. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and so, so a lot of what we do is, is let ourselves have an intimate experience of ethical dilemmas. Allow that every single one of us has intimate responses and reactions, responses being our, our, the, the, the, the, the responses come from our wellbeing. Our reactions come from our wound, um, to any ethical dilemma. And can we create an environment where those are not only welcome, but essential. Mm-Hmm. . And then once we've really just allowed all the reactions and responses, what arises in each of us in relation to this specific dilemma, you know, we've got just a library of dilemmas. Not, there's no dearth of dilemmas based on what's happening in the world, what people bring in from their own personal experience, what past students have brought in. Mm-Hmm. . So we'll take a dilemma and we'll work it and we'll, we'll bring in our reactions and responses, and we'll just let them all be here and we'll just breathe together and then we'll see what comes up next. Mm-Hmm. , what's my inclination? What's the first thing I wanna attend to? What's my fear here? What's the thing I'm most concerned about? What's the thing I wanna make sure happens? And we, we, we come to at least identify where in a US ethics lives. Mm-Hmm.

Rahi: . I love that.

Christiane: Just even that like Mm-Hmm. . Oh yeah. It's here. I feel it, it lives here, or it lives here, or it lives here, or, Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. It lives in my pelvic floor so much. Whatever. It's Mm-Hmm.

Rahi: . Yeah. I mean, what you're speaking to is so fascinating because it really re it, it really illuminates how ethics is so personal and so based on each of our unique histories, and there is no kind of standard ethics that you can, and, and yet that is kind of the, what's presented to us in our society. So, so you are really inviting an examination of each person to take on an ethical dilemma, quote unquote, like in, in, in each opportunity to see where it lives and how it lives and, and, and what is authentic to that person. Yep.

Christiane: Yeah. And depending on the course, you know, will have the, each student we'll have students upon arriving send me Mm-Hmm. You know, a short synopsis of an ethical dilemma that's re that's, that's recent enough for them. It's not a live wire ethical dilemma. Right. There's no skin in the game anymore. Right. Uh, because it's in therapy and we're not gonna hold people through an experience Mm-Hmm. . But, but something they, that they can remember enough to really bring in this, the, the relevant details. And so we might have a whole new pile of ethical dilemmas and, you know, in the past Mm-Hmm. , we've, we've had that dilemma worked by a council of participants in the class that doesn't include the person whose dilemma it was. So that person gets to witness.

Rahi: Oh, that's fascinating.

Christiane: And oh, so many things come up. But the, I'm sure the invitation is actually to imagine that ethics might be exactly contrary to what we've been taught. That there isn't a, you know, an external top-down outside in set of rote things we will always do in this situation and never do in that situation. That by nature, ethic, ethics and ecological ethics are mean that there's a thing that is yours to do in this dilemma, and there's a thing that's mine to do in this dilemma. Mm-Hmm. , they might be antithetical to each other. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , they might be just sort of categorically opposed to each other. Mm-Hmm.

Rahi: .

Christiane: Mm-Hmm. . But, but it takes a council to see which one or which ones Mm-Hmm. are the right way to go forward next, given this particular dilemma. Mm-Hmm.

Rahi: . Mm-Hmm.

Christiane: . So it's really a trusting that there's a, that ethic that breaches ruptures happen within a system. Mm-Hmm. and the healthy, vibrant ecology. Mm-Hmm. is going to create the solution, the repair.

Rahi: Yeah. I, I love that because it really calls upon, like, in that council situation, each person isn't hiding behind a position, but they're actually sharing how it affects them. Mm-Hmm. , you know, and making it personal and being transparent about how it affects them. Absolutely.

Christiane: Which,

Rahi: Which, you know, is, is bringing, you know, greater, like, I, I don't know, information, support, awareness, insight. Mm-Hmm. to the person who's, who's grappling with the, with the dilemma. Mm-Hmm. . Um, that is such a novel way, I, I can't wait to join the class when it's offered next. Good.

Christiane: I did just figure out the dates. So we're, so you're, you're, we're getting closer,

Rahi: . Oh, cool. Cool. Okay. So we're, um, kind of coming to the close of our, of our time here, but Cian, I would be remiss if I didn't, um, at least, um, uh, invite you to share something that you're very excited about regarding this next book that is being birthed, that's been gestating Mm-Hmm. . And that is, um, that is being birthed into the world. What are you most excited about regarding this book? Because this is like your, your fourth one.

Christiane: It's my, yeah. The third one that I, that's, that's mine, that came out of me, um, my fourth publishing, hopefully publishing one way or another. Publishing opportunity or experience. Yes. Um, yeah. And you know what I'll say, Rahi is that I love that you're such a fan of the trauma book and, and the nature of what we're discovering, both scientifically and, and anecdotally is about the nervous system, what we call the autonomic nervous system. Um, just the nature of it is that it's changing all the time. And that's just so beautiful. And, and so the book I would write now, and it was true even by, by 2019, that the, that I realized, oh God, there's a second edition that I need to write, write now. Mm. And I just, it's, there's, I had didn't get around to it. Didn't get around to it. And when I started working on this recent project, which was almost was a year and a half ago about, um, I thought that I was carving out space to do the second edition of that book Mm-Hmm. . And I was really going to more clearly speak about trauma as a rupture and belonging, because that's, for me, that's all it is. It's just a rupture in belonging. Mm-Hmm.

Rahi: .

Christiane: Mm-Hmm. . And our, our response to the it is that is very, very basic and simple and essential. And, and I'll say mostly I think we're doing it very laboriously if we're at all doing it Mm. Um, responding properly. And I know that makes me sound like , that's just such a, you know, dictator.

Rahi: No, I mean, based on our conversation today, it, it, it makes total sense, you know, in, in context of our conversation. Right. Why you feel that way. Absolutely.

Christiane: Right. Okay. Um, and, and, and so I thought that I was gonna be, you know, doing a, a much larger, you know, it would not be succinct, it wouldn't be efficient. It would probably be a 350 page big deal thing. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and in, and, and it turns out I am doing that Mm-Hmm. , but I'm doing it through the hybrid memoir

Rahi: Genre. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

Christiane: . Because what happened is that I, I realized, um, I, I, you know, I just went, I turned towards my sabbatical and kind of rolled up my sleeves and got out the old version of trauma and Mm-Hmm. got out my hundreds of pages of notes since then and Wow. And then all of a sudden, you know, started typing and I wasn't typing that, I was typing this story. Wow. And, and I, and I, and it just became so clear that in order to do it justice, in order to help readers understand how I hold trauma and why what we're calling trauma is, is not only inevitable, but actually deliberate in our conformist consumer society. It only survives because enough of us are deeply traumatized. Um, and so deeply impressionable and vulnerable. Um, I realized I had to tell it through a personal story and, and, and the story that I, that was so clear to me was the story of my older son's heroin addiction.

Christiane: Mm. And how the family unit, and particularly me and, and, and my son and his younger brother, my younger son, the three of us, you know, just how it was that we, the experiences we had Mm-Hmm. The experiences we had before that, the experiences we had during it, and the experiences we've had just now after that Mm-Hmm. That I would be able to, that would give me, that would be the, the, the through line. Mm-Hmm. To everything I wanna say about trauma as a rupture and belonging. Mm-Hmm. . And, and mostly it's just a, it's a book of questions. It's a book of asking questions. Mm-Hmm. and attempting to see things as they are not as they're called.

Rahi: Yes. Yes.

Christiane: Um, I don't, it's, it is not a prescriptive book. I have no interest in writing a prescriptive book. Mm-Hmm. . But, but it's, it's just a lot of story because that's really what trauma is. Trauma is a story about how safe or unsafe we are. Mm-Hmm. in this world.

Rahi: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And, and the inquiries that that invites. Right. It sounds like it's a lot of questions and, you know, questioning readers about their lives and their sense of belonging and what can be done in their lives to cultivate an environment that, um, that makes a sense of belonging the norm and, and can thrive.

Christiane: Yes. Yeah. That in fact, the singular responsibility of any community would be that it raises its children to have extraordinary unassailable experiences of their belonging. Mm-Hmm. , that's the single most important thing that we do as a community is to, is to ensure that, which is very different than what we're up to right now.

Rahi: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Oh, I can't wait to read it. Christian, thank you so much for sharing yourself and for showing up as you do as you are in the ways that you do. Um, how do people find out about your potlucks? I mean, I don't know if it's like people are gonna be flying in from all over to Boulder once a month for these potlucks, but, but I'm curious, how do people in your community find out about your potlucks?

Christiane: Yeah. To find out about anything? I'm up to it. It's just right there on my website, on the camera,

Rahi: On your website with

Christiane: ChristianePelmas.com.

Rahi: Okay. So, um, christianepelmas.com. It'll be in the show notes along with the Verdant Collective and some of the other things that you offer. Um,, thank you so much.

Christiane: Hmm. You are so welcome. What a pleasure.

Rahi: How is this interview landing in your ecologically erotic embodiment right now? Is there a felt sense of any body parts or erotic inner aspects that have bought into the fallacy of society standards for fitting in or not fitting in as if there is any such thing within the vast cosmos of existence, how would it be to accept and remind these aspects or body parts of their inherent and brilliant nature of belonging? Are there ways your mind has categorized certain members of your various tribes in ways that prevent the natural flow of life force for connection and intimacy? And if so, how would it be to just let this go and open to the infinite possibilities for connection? Links to all of Christian's endeavors are posted in the show notes. If you'd like to express appreciation for this podcast, consider leaving a review on whichever podcast platform you're tuned into. And until next time, take good care.