Rahi (00:02):
Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, sexological bodyworker, and creator of somatic sexual Wholeness.
Rahi (00:37):
Today I am thrilled to invite Emily Royce to the podcast. Our exploration of embodiment and the sexual and sensual pleasures for differently abled bodies invites us to question how as a society, we've created these standards and norms about sexuality and embodied pleasure, when everybody is so unique and different. And as practitioners, we explore how the same principles apply for anybody of attuning for what is true and desired moment by moment, always questioning. How can this feel even better. I'm very excited to welcome Emily Royce to the podcast. Um, Emily is also a certified somatic sex educator, a sexological bodyworker, as well as a scar tissue remediation and management practitioner, uh, who is currently, uh, the president of our Association of certified Sexological Bodyworkers. And she has been past president or past co-president for several years now. So there's a number of things that, um, we wanna get into. Um, Emily specializes in working with folks who have chronic pain and or disability or disorders that directly affect their sexuality. Um, she helps those on the outskirts of mainstream sexuality discover the hidden pleasures in their bodies and the language around asking for what they need and want and receiving it. Uh, Emily, thanks so much for joining us today.
Emily (02:24):
So happy to be here. Yeah. Excited to have this conversation.
Rahi (02:27):
Awesome. Me too. Me too. So, I, you know, like oftentimes when I have, um, guests on the podcast, I feel like, like a, a natural jumping off point is, um, inquiring about like how your life experiences shaped or influenced your path to holding space as a sexological body worker with the audience that you do. And what has been really instrumental in your personal jo journey of, of your own sexual embodiment?
Emily (02:58):
Okay. Well, you know, the focal point of my work, um, comes from, I, I developed chronic pain as a child, probably about six if I'm like, trying to track it where it originated. Um, and then just, you know, as, as the stuff does, it just compounds. And, um, but , it's, a lot of it is, it wasn't so much the pain and other things that developed. It's, it's the loaded stuff around it of not trying to be a burden, trying to be, I'm one of seven children. Um, so Oh, wow. Trying to, yeah. Not be too much , too extra, too this, too that and, and the kind of holding and gripping and things we do around what we're experiencing. Um, so that, that led into the path. I mean, it was all that holding and gripping. And I had this, you know, kind of pivotal point, I must have been, oh gosh, 34, I think it was where I, um, decided I was gonna go on a dancing journey to be with grief, like finally consent to grieving.
Emily (04:13):
I think I was resourced enough, felt supported enough by the universe. I'm like, okay, I can do this thing now. And not at all imagining that as I consented to grieving that within that was going to be greater joy than I had ever experienced. I, and I, I think that's true. Once we have this experience of, um, allowing ourselves to feel , to feel it all, and not trying to compartmentalize and say, I'll take this, but not that, uh, like once we get to see, oh, like, yes, of course there might be more grief, there might be more sadness, there might be more longing. Um, but there's all the other things to a much richer agree. So my foray into eroticism like really began there. 'cause that was like a somatic way to enter Mm-Hmm. ecstasy, pleasure, but maybe in a different way. And it was during that, that this dancing journey, um, it was meditating heavily.
Emily (05:22):
And I'm a Kundalini yoga instructor, so it's like really kind of wild meditations for a long time. Mm-Hmm. and started this tremor that would just kind of carry with me. And that led me to be like, I wonder. And then I went to tantra training, like a month long intensive, you know, so it was, it was just, it was letting curiosity lead. It was like, okay, now I'm resourced enough to face the sexuality bit with, you know, the loaded Catholic shame and the sexual dysfunction in quotes. Um, really problematic sexuality I'd had since I started, you know, so at that point, co almost two decades, it was like, okay, now I can face the thing. So that's what led me to the sexuality world. And then once I had a lot of dysregulating, um, experiences in the tantra world of Mm-Hmm. not having space holding where they really knew how to be with trauma, that's what led me into sexological body work. It's like, well, something else has to exist . Yeah. Where like, we get to experience ecstasy, but it's not like, oh, we're all having a good time and it's amazing, like, what happens when it's not? Um, right. And that's, that's what led me into, um, and then during sexological body work, I got super fascinated with the scar work. So that's what led me to that further.
Rahi (06:53):
Mm-Hmm. . Wow. That's really fascinating. So, um, I'm curious at 34 when you made the intentional choice of, like, I'm ki I'm kind of curious, which came first, did you choose dancing and as your body was getting engaged, you, you came a across areas in your body of grief? Or, or was it like the conscious embracing of the grief that led to your body wanting to move and express itself? Or maybe it was like concurrent?
Emily (07:24):
Gosh, yeah. It, it might, you know, concurrent sounds about right. Mm-Hmm. you Mm-Hmm. Like, because at that point, at that point, I had already been diagnosed with ms. I had already gone through some real difficult years. In the beginning of that diagnosis, I had gotten a divorce related to becoming ill. Mm-Hmm. . And then it was like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do yoga training. I'm gonna deeply immerse with spirit. I'm gonna, like, I became, you know, this the yoga instructor, and then I was working at a yoga studio. So I was just around this, I was going to chanting events. I was like, just really immersed in the realm of possibility. That's what that world is. You know, like when you meditate and you can go to this ecstatic place, that might not make sense. Mm-Hmm. That you can't explain, that you can't, you know, like try to like create a code for someone else to duplicate.
Emily (08:25):
You know, you just having this experience that felt like the first touch point into sexuality and sexuality, you know? Mm-Hmm. because they, I didn't have a lot of reference points at that, at that time for good positive, like erotic trance or Mm-Hmm. , anything like that, I think about, there's something to be said right. About body knowing and a remembering, even if we feel like, you know, oh, I've, it's never been good for me. Mm-Hmm. , I was able to remember at some point, you know, when I was six, I was precocious, I was mischievous. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. , I was, you know, I took off all the tutu to my belly outfits and would swing around the pole in my basement, like stripping, you know, like Wow. As a homeschooler. Like, how did I even know Mm-Hmm. how to do that . It's like, right. There's some remembrance there, you know, even yeah, maybe if it's not like even my lifetime, the body is like, this is freeing, this is fun.
Emily (09:31):
This is liberating uhhuh, you know, uhhuh until it's not. And when someone else discovers, you know, but that doesn't mean that that impulse wasn't there. So I think I was just remembering that like wavelength at a much, a much, much older age by doing other practices, other somatic things. Mm-Hmm. that made me receptive to receiving, made me receptive to like remembering like, oh, yeah. Mm-Hmm. Oh yeah, I have this narrative that, um, I was always a really serious person, and things have always been hard. And then you remember a tiny little bit and you are like, wait a second. Mm-Hmm. . That's not the whole truth. Mm-Hmm. . And then anything's possible. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . So it was leaning into the realm, um, of possibility. And that maybe, I don't know all the things. I think I know that opens the door to like, oh, wow, this is something I didn't have any context for. And here it is happening.
Rahi (10:32):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . But you know what, something that really stands out for me is that, like, as a child, as a young child, you were dancing in your basement, so you were like, that, that somatic memory of the joy and the energy of expressing yourself in that way was in your body. And it sounds like it got, I don't know, reawakened or remembered or tapped into at 34 when you chose to dance. And then, you know, as, as you shared the, the trance states that a lot of kundalini meditations can invite, uh, opens up these portals of like different possibilities, almost like, yeah. I mean, I would, I would love your, your in input on this, Emily, because, you know, as you know, Kundalini yoga is very much about angles and, and like, like putting your body into different angular positions, invoking the breath and the sound. Um, but I feel like Kundalini offers access to, you know, anyone who can really meditate and engage in their breath and sound. Um, I, how was it for you, uh, you know, having, having Ms being a teacher, and did you find it limiting? It sounds like it was liberating for you. Mm-Hmm. ,
Emily (11:46):
It's like both. Mm-Hmm. , I think, I think, um, because I'm, because I'm an oppositional person. . Mm-Hmm. , you know, like when they were like, you have to wear all white, I'm like, wore every color. I came to the first class, so funny, you know, every possible color combination. And I, but then I, then I had surrender, and then I was folded, bought in, and then I was doing two and a half hour practices starting at 4:00 AM after a cold shower. And like yeah. To just play and not feel like we have to be wedded embedded in whatever the thing Uhhuh to take the techno. The thing that really stayed with me in Kundalini yoga. Um, and this, you know, this is a lineage with abuse. This is a lineage that got all mm-Hmm. kind of twisted up, um, right. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . But there's, there are things that are like, it works.
Emily (12:38):
Mm-Hmm. if you just do the technology. Totally. And the thing that really stayed with me in that practice was what some teachers would say, which is, and if you can't do the practice like it's prescribed this day, right. Just envision it. Just imagine it. And your neurons are going to fire the same as if it were happening. Mm-Hmm. . Which is true. It's the same as I was just talking to someone about, um, Joe Dispenza, this author who, yeah. This is very much like, if you believe it, you can achieve Mm-Hmm. , you know, but just like, imagine yourself playing piano Mm-Hmm. . And then like, that will still like, fire this for your brain as well. Right? Yeah. I, I experienced that. It felt like, oh, I just did this whole set, even if half the time I was sitting here and I was doing breath work along with it, and I have my eyes closed.
Emily (13:27):
And that really helps work on, you know, ego. Mm-Hmm. and ableism in general. This was probably my first foray into, um, oh, I'm less than, I can't do the thing. Oh, I must look funny compared to the rest of the class. Oh, this, oh, that, I mean, it helps in kundalini yoga that everyone's eyes are closed. It's Mm-Hmm. , it's not, um, maybe as competitive seeming as some other yoga studios, for example. Mm-Hmm. . But it was having to kind of bump up against the edge and confront it lovingly a little bit, and then like, back away from it. And then the other part of Kundalini, which is like seeing what what you're capable of, which is a beautiful thing to experience for the self. So at a time where I felt really limited, like, I can't do this, I can't do that. Sure. Envision it half the time and then try like, what if Mm-Hmm. ,
Emily (14:29):
What if sometimes I'd find my arms being up in this wild pose Mm-Hmm. , you know, suck crea for, we did it for over an hour and I kept my arms up the whole time, you know? 'cause it's amazing. It's not that different than like the, you know, the somatic sexuality work we do of like, it's not, it's just every single moment, what does my body need and want in this moment? Am I capable of keeping 'em up in this moment? I don't have to think about the next moment. Mm-Hmm. , I don't have to think about and I don't have to push. Mm-Hmm. . It's not about, yeah. I wanna feel accomplished. Like, Mm-Hmm. , it's about can I, you know? Mm-Hmm. and how will, how do I feel every moment? Mm-Hmm. that I keep saying Yes. Mm-Hmm. . And it's actually a genuine Yes. And I'm not mm-Hmm. coming from a place of I have to, or the person next to me still has their arms up. So I also have to, it's just, you know, me, me, myself, and I spirit. Mm-Hmm. . Um, yeah. What are we capable of doing, uh, together. Yes. Yeah.
Rahi (15:36):
Well, this is really a wonderful segue because I, I, I wanted to ask like, um, how you incorporate what's been really instrumental in your journey with your clients? Um, and it sounds like, you know, I love what you, you know, kind of underscored around like, you know, when you can imagine it,, your neurons are firing, you know, because your imagination is so powerful. And just being present with what is and what your body needs moment to moment, um, are these, are these principles that you bring to your practice with your clients? And, and yeah, I guess a broader question would be like, what, what have, what do you, what do you find yourself bringing into the session space for your clients who may have chronic illnesses or physical disabilities that has been really instrumental for your journey of, of reclaiming your body?
Emily (16:31):
Mm-Hmm. . Mm. Well, it's like the fir I mean, the thing is with, with all clients, it's kind of like the, the methodology is, is the same with everyone. Uh,
Rahi (16:47):
With everyone,
Emily (16:48):
Yeah. In a way, you know, 'cause I think we compartmentalize, you know, differently abled bodies, but the technology is not really different. It's how is your, your body in this moment? Let's do some body focusing. Let's get you connected and in a relationship with your body so that you all can be having a conversation. It's less important about me understanding exactly what to do with you. Let's figure out where your system is leading you today. Um, the simple invitation of like, what would make this even better? Mm-Hmm. ends up sometimes taking 20 minutes, 30 minutes. Right. People who are not used to being comfortable. Mm-Hmm. and not used to taking time and space. Mm-Hmm. So this is a little bit more with differently abled bodies. Where I do see this with everyone though, that folks, we generally feel like a burden. Mm-Hmm. We generally feel like we're too much or not enough somehow.
Emily (17:49):
Mm-Hmm. At the same time. Mm-Hmm. . Yep. Yep. Um, so there's a lot of self apologizing. Um, so that, that sometimes can take longer, um, with differently abled bodies or differently abled minds. Just, just difference. Mm-Hmm. because the messaging from greater society of what the norm is. Right. The pace that's normal, like Mm-Hmm. that you need to be keeping up, like that's a little bit stronger and more felt maybe in a somatic way of like, always feeling behind or always feeling like your needs are fussy and like, you should just accept wherever is good enough, basically. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So that can be really instrumental, um, in initial sessions and really every session. Mm-Hmm. , I'm noticing that people wanna be like, it's fine. We can go ahead and start with the meditation. I'm like, . Yeah. But with something, make this even better. And when that prompt keeps coming, and then it's like, oh yeah, you're, yes, I do actually need something behind my knees.
Emily (18:49):
Okay. Actually the light is kind of irritating. . Like, yes. We just get closer and closer. And then what is getting to feel that in the body of how is it to sense what I need to speak it out to receive it. Right. And now be able to like savor and bask in that. I mean, that is like every step of the somatic sexology work that we do, like compiled into one, into the precursor to get into a exercise when really, like, that's kind of, its its own . Mm-Hmm. exercise, I find. Yeah. Yeah. That, that working with, um, differently abled folks just comes with some more. There's, I think the sensibility for folks who may work with this population is to, to understand or to gather resources or get exposed to the amount of medicalization that folks who have been, um, through the medical world Mm-Hmm.
Emily (19:56):
That really wears on a person and their body. And it really separates you from your body intelligence. It's by design. Mm-Hmm. . So if you go to many doctor's visits and you've had many procedures, surgeries, et cetera, et cetera, you're getting further and further away from your innate knowing of what's best for you. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Because you're constantly being told, we uhhuh the establishment know what is best for you. And it's always another procedure or medication or something else. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. That is not about getting into your, your body. It's usually about getting further away. So it's also with folks in this, these populations, I already move slow and this work moves slow, but I move even slower. Mm-Hmm. . So I think for anyone working with these populations to question your, it's always good to be untangling your own tenets of, of white supremacy, specifically urgency. Mm-Hmm. . So, or have an idea of like, okay, here's a differently abled person. Person. I'm gonna assume that their ideal is to get back to quote normal Mm-Hmm.
Rahi (21:11):
. Mm-Hmm.
Emily (21:12):
Presume that they wanna have sexuality that looks like what's going on in the movies. Mm-Hmm. So to really, like, we don't wanna do this with any clients. Again, that's why I'm trying to like generalize pan out. Yeah. Because hopefully we bring the same sensibility of slow Mm-Hmm. don't presume Mm-Hmm. let it be client led. Yeah. Let it be client body led. Mm-Hmm. . But I think we do need to work on our own stuff around what ableism for sure. Around what we think is normal or ideal. Right. Right. And have that be happening at the same time so that we can celebrate the triumph someone's having that might look really small. Mm-Hmm. that might seem insignificant to us. Mm-Hmm. Because we're comparing it to what another client was able to get to Mm-Hmm. or we're comparing it to, oh, I wanna get these people to have a really enjoyable sex life. And then they might have one micro movement that made self-pleasure more accessible to them and not like, feel like a victory to, to really celebrate that. Yeah. And least totally. At least you knows. Or pause. I mean, the integration is where most of the plasticity happens anyways. Um, so Yeah. To move slower, basically. . Yeah.
Rahi (22:31):
Well, I mean, what I think what you're speaking to Emily is so, so, so important. I mean, here I was like preparing for our interview, like wondering, you know, like, you know, what awareness as practitioners, you know, should, should consider. But it, it's really, it's really the fundamentals, you know, it's making sure it's client led, client empowered, attuning to the client's body, you know, no matter, you know, how, how, like where the client's body is on the spectrum of, of ability and, um, 'cause that's when the, the body is really reclaiming its own agency. And what I'm hearing is what I mean, the difference that I hear and you know, like, is that because, um, you know, some, some folks who go through the, the, the kind of western medical system have been so disempowered and been told like what procedure, like so many procedures are imposed onto them that it that to just really attune to, you know, even more so what it is that is true for the client's body and, and let that lead.
Emily (23:39):
Yeah, exactly. There has to, I mean, the wheel of consent is a beautiful tool for, again, for everybody. And this hopefully is a part of all of our practice. This can be really instrumental, um, and empowering for people who've, you know, been so out of consent. Yes. A lot of things have been done to them. Mm-Hmm.
Rahi (23:59):
.
Emily (24:00):
And even, you know, I think it's really important, like if we probably see, I see some big improvements when people see me for session prior to a surgery and after, particularly prior Mm-Hmm. to do body practices and listening in something like a body poem. Mm-Hmm. of how does the body feel about going into this procedure? Mm-Hmm. and, and reframing it in a way, you know, like, this is not my ideal, but I want, I want you to hear this body like, I am choosing this and what do we need to be on board with this can really feel more like a team approach of going into something. So when working with folks who've often had things done to them, it might take way more prac, way more time, way more consistent practice with a wheel of consent. 'cause again, what I find is people do this apologizing burden.
Emily (24:57):
I'm taking too long. It's good enough. I think I get it without like, no, we're really gonna stay here. Like, what would you want me to do to your, how do you want me to touch your arm? Like, if we're just practicing, I was like, I don't know. Okay. Well, we'll just stay with you. I don't know until mm-Hmm. you get a sense and you don't have to have a clear answer. You can just have, I think it might be this thing, and then we'll try a little bit and then we'll pause and we'll wait. Was that what you had in mind? Or is it a little bit more, we'll get it just right. Like, that can be so big for people to have an experience of like, oh my gosh. Like I totally ran the show in that Mm-Hmm. , like in this touch experience for once in my life. Yeah. And then that gives a touch point for the rest. Then we know, like when people are like, how do you teach consent? It's like when you have an embodied experience of like, oh, that felt different. That becomes your compass or your guiding star of like Mm-Hmm. for the next things. Then that's how you know when you, when you are in consent and then choice. Um, Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . It might give you tools to be in more consent and choice for further procedures and things like that too.
Rahi (26:10):
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Um, Emily, I'm curious, I I wanted to ask you the role that healing with pleasure played in your own reinhabiting or, or reclaiming of your body's agency and, and the role that that plays. 'cause I think I, I feel like on your website somewhere, I, I, um, you know, saw something about, um, like you sharing about how, you know, it can awaken new neural pathways that have been dormant and kind of the emphasis of healing with pleasure. And I remember a conversation we had before, you know, you sharing about like, you know, the wonders of having, of having, of discovering orgasm through el you know, touch at your elbow. And so, right. And so, and so, I'm, I'm really curious about the role that, that pleasure and client, your body led curiosity and inquiries about your own pleasure led to your own resource and agency and, and the kind of role that that plays in your work with clients.
Emily (27:15):
Mm-Hmm. . Okay. So, I mean, it's, it's everything
Rahi (27:22):
, it's everything.
Emily (27:23):
It, it really is everything. Mm-Hmm. ,
Rahi (27:24):
Um, it is the medicine.
Emily (27:26):
It Yeah. And, and far more effective than a lot of other medicines that we're trying to Mm-Hmm. Throw at ourselves, . Sure. So, and I want to, for people hearing this, and especially for differently abled bodies, like when I say pleasure, I don't mean it maybe the way that a lot of people see it, when I even say sexual pleasure or sensual pleasure, it's not like it, there's, you know, this incense that's like wafting into my face right now. It's highly pleasurable. So it's, it's recognizing that pleasure that we have resource in our body. And, and it was helpful to have my first encounters with guided, like, pleasurable based meditations that invited, justifying neutral. 'cause when I first got into this stuff, Mm-Hmm. every, all the pain, everything was so loud. I wasn't trained enough to even know how to navigate to find places I certainly couldn't access.
Emily (28:28):
Pleasure. And it, it exacerbated it when other people were saying, get into your pelvis, this juicy, enjoyable, you know, I'm like, it's not, it's very Right. Painful and loud and hot and fiery. You know, like Mm-Hmm. don't tell me what it is. But as soon as someone put neutral and allowed me and my body to decide, okay, can I find neutral? And then I was able to feel, oh, neutral is pleasurable. Wow. To be able to find a neutral, not loud, painful spot. Right. Like that is pleasurable. Yeah. And then I could lean into that as a resource. Mm-Hmm. . And then that could expand on its own instead of trying to, you know, tinker and create or have pleasure look a certain way or like totally go through the motions and Mm-Hmm. . So that, I mean, for, I think for anybody, you know, like pleasure, pleasure is a, a resource for bodies that have chronic pain and, um, things of this nature.
Emily (29:34):
And I think a lot of us have chronic pain. So when I say that, I think a lot of folks are hesitant to claim that for themselves. Mm-Hmm. I often hear people be like, oh, I don't have like a disability. It's just like, my knee hurts all the time. It's like, well, I mean, that's technically disabling. You don't have to use the term . Sure, sure, sure. Whatever the title's loaded. But if we're honest and acknowledge, oh, this is, I mean, we're all aging. Like we all have the, the totally and the creeks and the whatever, and the banks. And if we pleasure is going to add an extra layer of resourcefulness, and that's Mm-Hmm. this might lean into like, um, Deb's, you know, like glimmer list, um, with the polyvagal theory of just like compiling things, which is why they have the incense right here, compiling things that we know send us to this place of okayness where we're like, okay, I'm a little bit regulated.
Emily (30:31):
We gotta be regulated to really be able to feel pleasure at its, you know, totally full potential. Like, otherwise we can't even take it in. It's just gonna like, yeah. Which is what I think a lot of the sexuality world, unfortunately, it's like more faster, harder throw just like throwing things, um, at ourselves to, to feel more Yeah. When the curiosity in me is, can we feel more with less? Like Yeah. Can we start with neutral ? Love that and feel into that and Mm-Hmm. , so this informs my practice because it is, it takes away the expectation or like that, that that pleasure or progress is going to present in a certain way. You know, it's Mm-Hmm. , it's, it might be undefinable, like, of course we're gonna move slow. But even, you know, with my practice, even with clients, like the natural world can be a, a brilliant resource.
Emily (31:34):
Or had a client who was like, I just really wanna get into my second chakra. And was like, really kind of like, obsessed about this being only related to the genitals and Mm-Hmm. You know, I was like, this is the, you know, watery seat of emotion. I'm like, how do you feel about the world right now? Like, try not to think about it. I was like, maybe res, maybe actually think about Gaza, think about it, feel it, and then see if that activates your second chakra. Right. It's not, it is a leaning into life to feel more but doing this in tiny, tiny, right. Yeah. All this work is small, small, because we can get overwhelmed with good too. So it's not about doing a practice so much that we get into an ecstatic elevation state, and we can't even ground ourselves back into integrating what we have just done. It is doing it. And that's also an accessibility thing is, is doing it at a pace where we can actually like take in the Mm-Hmm. the phrase of it. Mm-Hmm. . But I feel like I just went all around and I'm
Rahi (32:46):
Not that No, it's great. It's great. No, you know, like what I'm, what I'm distilling from what you're sharing and, and actually the thing that really, uh, strikes me, uh, is, you know, this, this, this, there's this thing, and it's a, it's a cultural normative idea of what sex and pleasure and, and intimacy is supposed to look like. And it really gets in the way of the client led the body led experience and exploration of what's authentic for the body in the moment, moment by moment. And that's kind of like what I'm taking away, because like, I mean, I think it's so fascinating that, you know, in your own journey, you shared how, you know, you went from pain and getting to, you found the pleasure in the neutral, which is, which I love. It's so fascinating. And, and then from there you could like, you know, inquire further, you know, into neutrality and into pleasure.
Rahi (33:41):
Um, and what I'm hearing is, you know, like, I think this applies to anyone. I mean, I have so many clients who come in and they say, I think my is broken. And it's just based on all these Cosmo articles or what's in the media, you know, they think they should be, you know, having these squirting orgasms or, or whatever their idea is. But it sounds to me like a lot of what you, the space that you hold is to have an authentic inquiry for the client to really discover what is honest and truthful in their body moment to moment, rather than letting like these external ideas get in the way.
Emily (34:20):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those external ideas don't seem fun for anyone. Like, I don't even think the people who technically meet those criteria, whatever that is, you probably don't even feel like we're all, I mean, those, those things are designed to make us feel less than Exactly. That's what all designed for, you know. Sure. Buy another thing, get surgery. Yes. Get like this, do this uhhuh . Yeah. Like, you're broken, but Exactly. We don't need to be fixed. But also, yeah. Be being more oriented to, you know, the client. Like, what are, what are your desires and wishes? You know, it's, it's early that I'll do an I wants list, you know, with clients of like, which is usually very edgy for people. Um, again, because folks are coming in, you know, around you again, feeling like they need to get fixed. So it's more about, or I have people who are in a couple, or they come together as a couple and one of them feels like they need to get fixed for the other, oh, well, I just, I just need to feel okay with this other thing that this person wants, or I just need to get myself, I don't know why I have all these hangups.
Emily (35:32):
I I just need to, it's, it's geared towards, towards if I can just fix myself, or sometimes if I can fix a partner or something else, then everything will be okay. And it, it all comes back to somatic practices of like, Mm-Hmm. .
Rahi (35:49):
Mm-Hmm.
Emily (35:49):
. Yeah. What are you noticing in your body that leads to everything else? Um, where we get to discover oftentimes much higher highs than people could have imagined when they were sticking to the script. Right? So like you were saying, like, okay, like tons of squirting orgasms. Okay, great. Like maybe a lot of people want that. But what we discover when we meet in authenticity of what do you actually want? Because you might not even want that. Mm-Hmm. . And then we let your body do what's honest and true and follow that thread. I mean, this is, you, you've casually mentioned the elbow gam. It's like, so your listeners are probably like, what this is Mm-Hmm. from this place, how I discovered that it was, you know, like first it was the knee and that was just a friend, like touching my knee in, in a point of like, where I was already kind of in a trance.
Emily (36:46):
Mm. And that sent, you know, full body orgasm. And then I was like, I wonder if my elbow, and then I just started experimenting Mm-Hmm. . Like, if we can be in this space, and that came from a place of decentralizing genitals of things that were inaccessible to me, or I kept trying to perform sex, kept trying to perform pleasure. Mm-Hmm. , oh, this person wants to do this thing to me and they wanna elicit a specific response from touching my, this specific part of my body. And that's gonna make them feel a specific kind of way, you know? But like, Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . I mean, and, and like, it's not for everyone, but I've gotten people to circle my elbow, you know? Mm-Hmm. . And then they've been like, thrilled that it elicits this other response and they don't have to Amazing. It's much more useful for ,
Rahi (37:34):
For everybody. Yeah. A lot more accessible. Sure. You can do it in public, you can do it at a restaurant. Exactly. Absolutely. Exactly. Yeah. Um, yeah. So
Emily (37:43):
I want that for clients, this kind of magical, but very science-based neuroplastic, you know, it's like, yes, they study the states of Right. Like, um, like psychedelics and that erotic trance is similar Yes. To these states where we bend reality and, and we bend what's possible. Right. And I see it as as fact as truth again. Mm-Hmm. . And again, so Totally. It's like, what e what even is the reality that we're bending? Like Mm-Hmm. , who's to say that's even the, the starting point? Like Exactly. Exactly. Like, like is that the one that's reality or is it reality that like maybe our entire body could be a, a potential pleasurable, um, you know, opportunity just like waiting to happen if we bring in curiosity.
Rahi (38:36):
Absolutely. I, I fully, I fully believe that. And, you know, going back to your point about psychedelic journeys and erotic trances, there's so much similarity. I feel like both the medicine world and our own kind of erotic medicine world, uh, kind of opens up portals for, um, touching into past traumas and deep wounds and metabolizing them in a really profound way. I feel like erotic energy, you know, like, I feel like sex the way, you know, most mainstream, you know, culture sees it is just kind of missing the point almost. Mm-Hmm. I mean, pleasure is wonderful. I love pleasure, but to your point, a lot of it's about ego and identity and feeling like, you know, you are accomplished as a sexual person. And when you really go into erotic states, you know, I, I think you can touch into realms of consciousness that, that, that aren't accessible otherwise. Okay. Before we wrap, as I have you now as the sitting president co-president of the Association of Certified Sexological Body Workers, um, and you've been either serving as president or co-president, uh, or I remember a couple years ago as secretary Mm-Hmm. like way back when. Mm-Hmm. . Um, so you've been on the board, you know, for quite a number of years. Like, what compelled you to play such a leadership role for our community, and where do you see our field evolving into in the future?
Emily (40:05):
Hmm. I wanted, yeah. I just felt the call. You know, I, I, I think, um, you know, I felt the call from spirit and I answered, it's like, well, this is what I was told to do, so I'm gonna show up and kind of do it dutifully. Um, but I, I, I wanted to be a part of, uh, shaping change, um, baby Butler, like feeling sensing, um, you know, I was super, I think I joined the board and I had only been practicing six months maybe. Wow.
Rahi (40:42):
Wow. Um,
Emily (40:43):
So feeling like, yeah, I don't know all the things, but I wanna be part of shaping where we're going. Um, and yeah, it's like that's where, uh, the Bipoc scholarship got created, which is just Mm-Hmm. it is just meant to be an initial something, um, to bring some awareness, some change to the field, um, as far as who gets to practice and how, um, you know, that led in, like, you're leading. So, you know, it, the Bipoc mentorship, um, there's about, there's a creation of an accessibility fund that's gonna be happening this month.
Rahi (41:26):
Oh, cool. Uhhuh
Emily (41:27):
Wonderful. I meant for both practitioners who might have to be outta work based on disability or injury to something you need in your office to try to make it more accessible for your clients to additional training you wanna do, so that you're more equipped, um, Mm-Hmm. to be able to take on, um, complex bodies and existences, for example. So those are, I mean, those are some things, it never feels like enough. I mean, this is part of my, probably personality, but it it feels like Mm-Hmm. , there's a lot of things that I wanna see happen. Um, Mm-Hmm. . And it feels like the future of sexological body work. I mean, I feel the tide's changing. Like it's, it's, it's interesting. It is a very, it's kind of like we can go in one of two directions and it feels like, you know, at this point, um, all of the school heads are white, um, folks, uh, the majority of certified sexological body workers in the world.
Emily (42:27):
'cause there's still not very many of us. Not, but the majority, no, they're not, the majority are majority white folks. Um, and so it, it, as much as I've tried to get the schools unified around commonality of mission and purpose mm-Hmm. , there is resistance to that. Um, because there's a hyper individ visualization, um, yes. Within sexological body work, it's kinda like rogue folks who are like, don't tell me what to do. I'm gonna do whatever. Totally. Mm-Hmm. that is also though a that's white culture, you know, this hyper individualization. So we, we don't quite know how to do the community, um, resource gathering, bring people into the fold Mm-Hmm. be humble, step back, learn from others. You know, there's so many aspects there. Mm-Hmm. that I think is going to involve the heads of schools getting trained, getting curious, what am I missing? Where are my blind spots?
Emily (43:27):
Huh? I wonder what this is, or this is, I wonder if I talk to another school ahead, how we might like do something that's difficult for us, but do it together. You know, like it's just, it feels like, and I hear the beginnings of that, you know, with Mm-Hmm. , the schools, because I'm on the board Mm-Hmm. Because I'm on grievance council ethics committee and, and some of these folks are on there. I know. It's starting, it's starting. So it, it's up to the folks who are already in the field, which are pre the people in power are predominantly or all white to decide where the field is going and, and what matters. And I do think it's gonna start with our own education, um, our own getting, just same as we were saying all this time with clients, getting curious, you know, about what is here, what wants to be worked with noticing.
Emily (44:20):
Mm-Hmm. , you know, where we need resources and, and to share with each other, because we're missing a lot. You know, as far, I still think that sexological body work is a beautiful field. Mm. We're missing a lot as far as how to be with all bodies. Mm-Hmm. and what those bodies might bring. Right? Mm-Hmm. . So if we loop it back to accessibility and dis working with differently abled bodies, then we are in the same, you know, it's like, oh, why are, why does our field have a harder time approaching that or venturing into that? And, you know, Shauna Farba does great work with this around accessibility, you know, in our field. But she has said, there needs to be more of us. Why, why am why am I out here like saying the things and other people not picking that up? Mm-Hmm. . And I do think it's related, um, to the racial composition of the people who are, are making the decisions, uh, who are deciding where we go. And I think that, that, um, yeah. Like disability is linked in with that. Um, Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. or the, or the awkwardness, you know, if we're gonna be generous, like the awkwardness around disability, you know, and Mm-Hmm. and how these different bodies present is very much linked into perfectionism and other topics. Mm-Hmm. of, of white supremacy. So we get, we have, that's where I see the future is like, okay, it can keep going as it does. And that's still good in a lot of ways.
Rahi (45:57):
totally.
Emily (45:58):
Or totally if it wants to be in this like, next frontier of Right. Really providing healing presence to a multitude of bodies in a trauma-informed way. Mm-Hmm. . Then there's this other kind of foray Mm-Hmm. this other leaning into the aspects, um, that we can do that I think will give us many, many fruits. Um, probably, you know, surprising, not predictable, uh, fruits Mm-Hmm. , which is the beauty of it.
Rahi (46:30):
Yeah. And the opportunity, you know, I mean, just in our conversation, you, you've, you've underscored so many like, incredible insights that are applicable to, to any client that it, it's almost like, you know, like the, the, the, the, the meditation of being slow and moving at, at a slower pace than what we're used to can bring such insights and a tremendous like, skillset to any practitioner who's not used to that by working with, you know, folks who are disabled. Um, I mean, everything that you mentioned, you know, like, um, you know, just exploring the whole terrain of the body as a healing potential and the new neural pathways. I mean, these are all applicable to any client, but I think it's almost like, you know, if we can open up as a field to be more inclusive, um, then it, it's just gonna enrich all of us as practitioners and enrich, you know, our society just in general, you know, to be a liberated, you know, like group of, group of souls.
Rahi (47:35):
Um, so for listeners who are not sexological body workers, there are currently, I believe, seven trainings all around the world. Um, Portugal, uk, Australia, uh, Berlin, uh, obviously North America. And each has its own identity. And, and Emily speaking to the desire to really work as a community so that we can bring, you know, the potential, kind of realize the potential of, um, sexual empowerment and embodiment to all bodies. Emily, thank you so much for being with us today. I really, really appreciate everything that you shared, and I am excited for our audiences to, to, um, yeah. To learn from our discussion today.
Emily (48:18):
Yay. , thank you so much for having me.
Rahi (48:21):
And Emily, um, for people who wanna reach out to you and learn more about your work and your offerings, can you share how people can get in touch with you?
Emily (48:30):
Yeah, it's, uh, heal with pleasure.com, and when you go there, you can sign up for like an intro meditation too, that I'll just send it to you automatically and then you can get a taste of the work as well. Hmm. Um, and that puts you on the mailing list, which I am not going to bombard you, but then if some kind of new offering comes up, you'll, you'll get be in the know. Um, and then I'm on Instagram at Pleasurable Healing. I work both virtually, um, and in person. So I am in Michigan, but I work with people. I have clients all around the world.
Rahi (49:09):
Awesome. Awesome. How lucky for them. Awesome. Emily, thanks so much.
Emily (49:14):
Thank you.
Rahi (49:20):
How is this episode landing for you in your body right now? If your body is familiar with chronic pain states, have you ever considered consenting to feeling and dancing its grief or deeply meditating on states of neutrality? If we liberate ourselves from society's norms of what pleasure looks and feels like, what are novel ways your body may be enticed to explore itself? Have you ever explored the orgasmic, delicious states of your elbow or your knee, or perhaps your ear lobe, either in private or at your favorite restaurant? Links to Emily's website, heal with pleasure.com, and a wide range of resources for differently abled bodies are in the show notes. Until next time, take good care.