Welcome to your Body. Remembers pleasure. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. This podcast is devoted to sexual embodiment, intimacy, and the body's innate capacity to heal, feel, and remember pleasure. If something here resonates with you, you're welcome to explore more writings and resources@rahichun.com. And now let's begin.

 

Today it's a great honor to invite Dr. Betty Martin to discuss her pioneering work, the Wheel of Consent, and it's subtle, yet powerful distinctions involving touch. Boundaries and consent and how creating clear agreements invites a safety within the nervous system to truly receive sensation. And in so doing reconditioning our touch receptors to experience the kinds and quality of touch, our body truly desires with trust and sovereignty.

She shares how her understanding of the wheel of consent evolved, the importance of waking up our hands to receiving common obstacles to our ability to receive touch, and the journey of distilling and transmitting this critical work into book form with the newly released the Art of Receiving and giving the Wheel of Consent written with Robin Dolson.

So I am really thrilled and honored to be inviting Dr. Betty Martin to the show today. She is responsible for this pioneering body of work called The Wheel of Consent. She created the Wheel of Consent, is a co-founder of the School of Consent, which provides trainings and experiences supporting somatic empowerment, safety, connection by clarifying the experiences and dynamics of touch.

Consent boundaries. And they have now trained facilitators that lead this really critical body of work all over the world. She's also author of the very anticipated upcoming book called The Art of Receiving and Giving the Wheel of Consent. Betty is also a sex and intimacy coach formerly a chiropractor, sexological body worker, sacred, intimate, betty, thank you so much for being here with us today. You are so welcome. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I feel like the wheels really inspired such an awareness. Exploration of the subtle distinctions of touch and consent certainly with body work professionals all over the world.

I'd love to, as a jumping off point, Betty, to ask you what some of those really pivotal experiences were that inspired the clarity and distinctions of the wheel of consent. That's a great question. In my mid forties, back in the 1990s, I attended some workshops and around sexuality with the Body electric school and one of those among several was called Power Surrender and Intimacy, and it was about using BDSM practices and self-awareness.

And we played a game there, it's called the Three Minute Game. And the three minute game consists of two questions that two people take turns asking each other. And the questions are, what do you want me to do to you for three minutes? And what do you want to do to me for three minutes? That was fun.

That was really fun. And and we played a few rounds of it and. And later when I started seeing clients I took that game off the shelf and dusted it off and brought it out to work with clients because I thought I had been a chiropractor, so I knew how to take a history and make a plan for a client.

And I thought as a way to transition from the talking history, taking part of the session into the touch part of the session. I thought this will give me a sense of how comfortable people are, what their skill levels are. It will just make a nice transition. And it did, and it showed me a lot more, and and so I'd say the pivotal thing from for developing the wheel was first of all learning the three minute game, and second of all, having hundreds of people to play it with because I had all my clients. I think if it, if I had just played it with a partner to I would not have noticed what I noticed.

But when you ask a hundred people, how do you want me to touch you? Or What do you want me to do to you for three minutes? You find a lot of answers and mostly you find that people are confused or suspicious or don't know what they want or are confused about who it's actually for. You ask someone, how do you want me to touch you?

And they say you could, such and such, I could, but that wasn't the question. I asked what you wanted. And so people were, they, people were confusing what they wanted with what was okay and good enough, which is a very different question. And so a lot of, it was just being able to play it with a lot of people that really showed me that.

And likewise, when I would ask, how do you want to touch me? Then the people would get really confused and they'd say I, I wanna touch you the way you wanna be touched. That's nice, but this is for, how do you want to touch me? And so I think one of the reasons why. The, this clarity clicked around these questions was that I took them so ridiculously, literally.

And and another one was that I had lots of people to play with. Yeah. And so when I say how do you want me to touch you? It's a very literal question of asking what you want. Seeing how confused and lost people would get with being asked what they wanted. And I came to appreciate how hard that is.

And then see, seeing it in my own life as well. Like when someone asks me what I want, maybe I don't know, or maybe I'm embarrassed, or maybe I'm too shy. Or maybe I just don't know what it feels like to have something. It actually is for me instead of, instead of having an agenda for it.

About it. So it I'd say that it's not that the wheel of consent brings out any particular nuances of consent. There are many people who do that better than I do, but it brings out this kind of stark clarity of who is this actually for? If I'm asking you what you want, then it's for you.

And I of course have my limits and my boundaries of what I'm willing to do for you. But but it's for you. And you get to choose and you get to notice and you get to change your mind and you get to stop when you wanna stop 'cause it's for you. And that distinction of who it's for.

It turned out to be really hard for people. And it surprised me. And and then of course you see it in your own life where I get confused about it in my own life. I think we always teach what we most need to learn, wow. So you know what you're speaking to underscores the.

Kind of the wealth of awarenesses that are awaiting us in the practice of the wheel. In the practice of the three minute game. Because honestly like when we look at the visual diagram, it makes sense, like things click intellectually. But that is that's like planets away from actually.

Yeah. Clicking in our touch receptors. Yeah, absolutely. And especially what you're underscoring is what do my hands really want to experience? Yeah. Yeah. That's so huge and I, I'm assuming that's why there's such an emphasis on the waking up the hands practice.

Yeah. Within the wheel. Yeah. Because without those touch receptors. Sensing and listening for what its authentic desires are. Some of these quadrants really are become a mental exercise. Become a mental exercise. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One time I was working with a client who and I'm asking them, how do you want to touch me?

I'm asking them. It's about what they want. It's not about giving me something that they think I want. It's about what do you want? So it's about what do your hands want to do? And I had a client who was just really struggling with this and was just glued to my face to, see, did I like this?

And he was, he happened to be stroking my arm and I could tell that he was trying to do it for me. And so I'm trying to verbally coach him, feel for the shape, feel for the texture, feel for what is pleasant to your hand, because I thought people know how to do what's pleasant to their hands.

They just needed a little reminder that it's okay to do that. So he just was stuck. He just could not get it. And so I reached over. There was a river stone, had some interesting textures on the counter, and I said, so I just reached over and picked it up and in my mind I said, okay, let's see what you can do with this thing when there's nobody there to give to.

So I handed it to him and he couldn't really feel that either. He knew it was a stone, but he couldn't be attentive to the sensation. He couldn't take any enjoyment out of the texture of it, and that was a kind of an aha moment for me because I realized, oh, it's not that he can't feel my arm, it's that he can't feel anything.

Like he can't use his hands to create anything pleasurable in his hands at all. And that's when I realized, oh, that's like the, that's the neurological prerequisite to being able to touch a person for your own pleasure is to be able to touch anything at all for your own pleasure. And so I started doing that with other people and eventually now I do it with everybody because.

I've found that most people, to some degree, their hands are they're, it's like our hands are instruments to accomplish things and what we need to do is to switch them to a source of pleasure, to ourselves. Can I feel this stone or this pen, or this feather just for the pleasure it creates in my hands.

Once that clicks, which takes anywhere from a few minutes to a few weeks, once that clicks, then I can feel you. And now I can really feel you. I can feel the texture. I can feel the shape. I can feel the warmth. I can feel the enjoyment of this curve of your elbow here, so it was by accident that I came upon the waking up the hands and I soon realized that, oh, this applies to everybody. Like we all have to reawaken that sensory inflow. Of course, the neural information comes in from our hands, comes up our spinal cord into our brain and it connects with the pleasure centers and bing, they light up, and if that, if the neurological connection can't be made to, from the data to the pleasure center, that's when. There's just something wonderful that's missing. Yeah. And it can be it can be reclaimed. It's quite easy. You just sit down and take local objects around you and feel 'em up.

And slow down and it'll wake up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great reminder that a couple of things. One, that this waking up can be done with the whole body. But I suspect Betty that because it, it's such a huge collection of nerves in the hands that when the hands are woken up.

Kind of those touch receptors of the whole body, Yeah. 'cause it's a huge network. Yeah. Th that kind of wisdom of reception wakes up touch receptors in the whole body. Yeah. I think that's true. But that is what I've noticed is that when your hands get it, you get it. You just click and, yeah. I think that's true.

So it's a very specific way of waking up the hands that you instruct of making sure the body is in a passive receptive state. And so that the body is used to, and the nervous system is used to not engaging or being in the doing state, but actually being in a passive receptive state. Which kind of changes the whole body's expectation and experience of the sensation. Sensation. Yeah. Yeah. I found as I was taking people through this, I found that if you were sitting forward or sitting up like in a yoga position and you had your hands out in front of you, and it's like you're engaging the muscles of your trunk and your arms, it's just like your brain can tell when you're working hard, and so we have to stop you from working hard.

And to do that, you just lean back, put your hands in your lap pillow and your lap and slow down. Slow way down, and slow down some more. Yeah. And it's this process that leads to a somatic, a body-based understanding of really who's the touch for. Yeah. Because without that kind of Yeah. Awareness and listening then it sounds like the client you had before, it's just like numb to varying degrees.

If I'm running my hand down your arm and it's, if we'd agreed that it's for me, may I feel your arm and you say Yes. Now to me. Then I can feel the shape and the texture and it's quite lovely and I can enjoy it. But if my hand doesn't know how to take in any data and enjoy it, then I can touch your arm.

And even though we might have agreed, it's, for me, it doesn't feel like it's for me because it's not enjoyable. And the only thing that I have left is to try to make it pleasant for you because I don't know how to feel pleasant. For me. I just don't know how my hands aren't awake.

So the only thing that's left is to try to make it pleasant for you. And I think that's so profound. It's it's so profound to recognize that when we are not able to enjoy the sensory pleasure, the only pleasure that can be derived is from the response of that touch. By the other person and yeah.

Absolutely. And I think this kind of speaks to I mean it saddens me to recognize this, but I think it's really important that it speaks to our conditioning from when we're young as children. It's the degrees to which. Engagement of touch for us wasn't necessarily really for us, it might have been conditional.

It might have been obligatory. It might have been, to, in, in some instances just abuse or punishment. And so how numb are we really to our touch receptors and their awareness of when we are receiving. Yeah. On that note, Betty, I feel like. The rewiring that's happening with the waking up of the hands.

It's an enormously healing experience because we're reconditioning touch receptors and experiences of touch that, may have been abusive or may have been unsafe. Yeah. The practice of waking up the hands you do just with yourself and objects, you don't need anybody else there.

And one thing, I think that kind of makes it what it is and makes it useful. And of course I've just geeked out on this to no end. And it's just fascinating to me once I started noticing it, is that because there's nobody else there, it's not about anything. It's not love, it's not sex, it's not giving, it's not receiving.

Nobody's doing anything to you. Nobody's trying to make you feel good. You're not trying to make anybody else feel good. It's just, there's no meaning to it at all. It's just, can this nerve cell talk to this brain cell? That's it. So it's a very fundamental human circuit that for most people, has to some degree kind of gotten rusty.

And so as it comes back online. All kinds of ahas come up, feelings come up. Tears are very common. Tears of grief often are pretty common. Relief delight as well as confusion and fear. And some, I've had people say, gosh, this makes me feel like I'm selfish, but it doesn't make any sense.

Why would it feel selfish? And so it's working on that circuit that is the. This is your relationship to pleasure. It's in the very fundamental way. And is it okay to feel pleasure? Does it feel shameful to feel pleasure? And I'm defining pleasure broadly here.

Yes. Do I feel sad? Do I feel threatened? And also you, because you are the one who's doing it with your hands. You can stop anytime if it feels like it's a little too much, which it might just put the thing down. There's nobody here to please. That's just, you're experimenting.

And you're taking action that creates something that's enjoyable to you, or at least interesting to you. And so I think one reason it's so powerful is because that's such a fundamental. Human capacity to enjoy our sensations. And it's one that's got interrupted, of course. And so as it as that, those nerve cells start talking to each other again, the ahas come up, the feelings come up.

Yeah. Yeah. So then it's turned out to be quite a big process, which I had no idea. That's where we're going when I. I stumbled upon it. Yeah. Uhhuh. It's, I feel like it's an invitation to this kind of labyrinth of our inner world. Yeah. Which is so exciting. Yeah. Because I feel like the structure of the wheel of consent offers a sense of safety.

Because we all know it's all out in the open. There's no surprises. One person asks, how do you want to touch me? How do you want to be touched? There's a room for negotiation. And, you in the wheel, there are, there's a process to really feel into what your heart's desire is.

And because that sense of safety is there, it allows for more, it allows for the nervous system to feel safer in receiving touch. Yeah. And then as the nervous system downregulates, it opens up to more sensation. And more pleasure. Yeah. It's this kind of continual exploration of new terrains as the nervous system.

Feels safer and safer in receiving touch and exploring touch. Oh yeah. I think that's true. I think that's, I think it's like a fascinating labyrinth. And I love it for that reason. Yeah. As I mentioned at the outset your book is coming out soon in February. And I am curious how the process of putting into words often what is very challenging and is based on the language of touch, not the language of Yeah.

Of words really. Like how did that, I'm curious in the process of. Putting it on paper and organizing it in a book. What was your process like, and were there even, different or new realizations that came to you about the wheel? Yeah, the, it the writing, the book has been a 13 year process.

Wow. And when I first started in oh seven. I thought, oh, I'm just gonna write down this cool little two questions and show the wheel and it'll, that'll be cool. And it'll be about a hundred pages. And as I started to work on it, it turned out that it more wanted to be said. And it also turned out that it was very difficult to write.

Not so much because this is getting off the line, but not so much because the topic was difficult. It was because the, my feelings that came up around writing it were difficult. First of all, a nice girl is not supposed to know the things that I know because I was doing sacred, intimate work, sex work, and that's where all this came from.

A nice girl's not supposed to know this stuff and. If I do know it, I'm sure not supposed to tell it. And if I tell it, I'm sure not supposed to make it out in public, so all this stuff would come up and I'd sit down to write and I'd cry for an hour and then I'd get up and write.

And then the next day I'd sit down to write and I'd cry for an hour and I'd get up to write. And this went on for years. And I took, at some point, I took a year off. I frequently took a few months off 'cause I was traveling and teaching and at one point I thought, I need someone, if I just had someone to stand next to me in the room and help me think this out.

You know what words go where then I could do it. I didn't have anybody do that, but I called a few friends and I said, Hey, I need some help. Would you just. Listen to me for a few hours every week and how many hours do you have and when do you have it? And so I had three or four friends who I would call every week and just talk out loud through the book, and they saved my butt.

Wow. And one of them allowed it invited me to come to her home for six weeks. And I just, I could not have done it without. Without the help. And in the last couple years my co-teaching colleague Robin Dawson, came on and helped me get it over the finish line. But it was very difficult, not because of the subject, but because of my own feelings about how dangerous it was to speak up, which is just sexism mainly, and so it just took a lot of tears and a lot of support. A lot of support. Yeah. And then, after 10 years or so of that it no longer, I no longer have those tears about it. It's it's become quite easy because I cried them all. But now I'm just really tired of it. I'm just on the tail end now.

I'm working on the index this week. Oh, good. Good. Betty, that's it's touching and moving and a profound kind of commentary on our society as well. Yeah. The process of what you describe. I feel like it probably also, you have your very specific, unique. Journey.

Just an incredible journey. But but I wonder if that can also, it probably reflects a lot of people who practice through the wheel and come up with their own different levels of wanting to hide and shame and acceptance and, declaring ownership of, what they want and who they are and what their lives are and what their body wants.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's one, one reason why it's, it can be so challenging and so liberating, because once again we're dealing with a fundamental circuit of human nature, which is noticing what we want and asking for it. And yet how many of us really were rewarded for that as kids and were treated well and I don't know anybody who doesn't struggle with that sometimes. And yeah, it's, it can be very intimidating and it can be a huge relief and completely liberating to discover that, oh my gosh, there actually is something that I want, and oh my gosh, I actually can ask for it and I can ask for it right out and straight.

In the, light of day is just incredibly liberating. And then, and as a practice, you're pr you're playing it with a peer and you're taking turns and it's it's about touch. Doesn't have to be about touch, but that's how I learned it. And it's also, I think it's a great way to learn it because it's somatic.

You learn things with your body that you just can't think of it your head Exactly. And habits and behaviors and conditioning can get reconditioned so efficiently. Absolutely. Through, yeah. Through our body. Yeah. And this is, for listeners who have never played the three Minute game or are not familiar with the Wheel of Consent it can involve like a huge range of touch.

From just one's hand to lovers can use it as foreplay, but there's a wide range. It could be as platonic as a head rub or a back rub. Or an arm or elbow rub. Yeah. But once again, it is reconditioning. The messages that really go deep into our nervous system and our bodies, our psyches really, when we're very young about what's allowed and what's not allowed and what may be punishable and what may be sinful and all of that stuff.

Absolutely. I think one of the things that surprised me most about how we're conditioned, you're talking about as young ones, was how universal it is to go along with stuff. That you don't want, or like even when it's your own turn. So somebody may say to me, how do you want me to touch you? And I say, oh, you rub my head.

So they're rubbing my head. It's not quite the way I like it, I don't wanna blah, blah, blah. And so while I I, it's okay, I'll just put up with it. Why on earth would I do that when it's my turn to have it the way I want it? And yet almost everybody will do that.

And we think there's something I'm supposed to want, or and if I don't like it, there's something wrong with me, or I need to change my attitude so that I like it better. Yeah, that that kind of surprised me as how. How universal that is. Yeah. Just going along with stuff that we don't really like.

Yeah. And so much of what you just described happens all the time in sexual intimacy. Oh yeah. Whether it's with, whether it's with married couples Yeah. Who've been together for decades, or people dating for the first time. There's so much. Conditioning one. Yeah. Resistance to receiving or fear of receiving.

As well as, self image around sexual identity. And pleaing the other, and all of that. Yeah. So this brings me to a question because, I know that you also you're a sex and intimate coach and you work with couples. I'm curious, when you're working with couples, the resistance to.

Engaging and exploring some of the conditioning. Do you see it pretty equally in both genders or does one gender have like more of a challenge than the other? I think on average that the genders may have different challenges, but you'd see the same. It doesn't, we're people first and foremost, and so whether you're.

Man or woman or transgender or non-binary or whatever the challenge is. Yeah, you're gonna have challenges. Things are gonna come up and the conditioning. There are themes that come tend to come up very often for men and for women, but it varies by the person. No, it varies by the person.

I am curious if you could share some of those themes that, that you've observed over the years. The reason I bring this up, Betty, is Sure. I'd be happy to, because I was in conversation with one of my colleagues who a somatic. Psychotherapists and started working with couples, like in groups and, married couples.

And she found that there was so much more resistance with the husbands. In the situation they were all married. And and she was trying to introduce kind of new conditioning, new patterns of touch, essentially. I imagine that part of that reason why men tend to be more resistant is because.

Little boys are taught not to feel, don't feel your fear, don't feel your grief. Angers may be okay, but just don't feel, especially anything that's tender. And so it just feels incredibly vulnerable and foreign to have these kind of tender vulnerable feeling. So I imagine that's probably why.

I'd say a very common theme among women is to not know that it's possible to be touched exactly the way they want, because most women have been touched by, usually by men. Most women have been touched in ways that were not inspiring, but they just kinda had to go along, or it felt like they had to go along or chose to go along.

So very often when a woman discovers it's possible to be touched in the way she wants, like such a thing exists in the known universe. It's a huge revelation often. That, oh my gosh, that mean I get to have what I want. It's like in her body, she didn't even know what that felt like.

That's very common among women, sometimes among men, but it among women, it's endemic. Yeah. Yeah. And among men, one of the things that's tends to be most challenging is waking up the hands. Men very often had a much, have a much harder time with that waking up the hands, and I don't think it's because they have any fewer nerve endings in their hands.

I think again, it's because of the conditioning of little boys are taught not to feel. And so if you're gonna feel things with your hands, you're also gonna feel things emotionally, and that's, we ain't going there. So men very often have a harder time waking up their hands. Women are, it's usually easier.

Yeah. And until your hands are awake. You can't have that experience of touching another person for your own pleasure. And so that whole segment or quadrant becomes difficult for men. And the shadow of that quadrant is perpetrator, groping, assault, rape, it's all the horrible things. And so if you don't understand the consent piece.

You look out at that quadrant and you go, I'm not going there. That's, I'm not that guy. I'm just not gonna do that. And so that tends to be. Harder for men than for women. Again, there's variation, but on, on average it tends to be Yeah. That's really profound and it makes so much sense that without those sensory receptors being turned on without being able to feel that. They, there's, there is a tendency to go into the shadow side. So each, so for our listeners, each quadrant, they, each quadrant has shadow aspects of when one is, when a quadrant is not being fulfilled, then there are other shadowy ways of trying to experience that fulfillment. Yeah. The shadows are essentially the action's happening, but the consent isn't happening. Yeah. That's a whole nother talk. Yes, that is. And it's also profound what you shared about, the tendency for a lot of women to be so conditioned and used to Yeah. Not experiencing what it is their body really wants.

Yeah. Almost like a passive, I don't know what the word is. Passive not compliance. It's acquiescence. Acquiescence. Yeah. And the thing is, it's not too surprising that we might not know what we want all the time or something. That's fine. That's not surprising at all. But to not know how to experience something that is actually for you because you've never had it, that's what was surprising about it.

Yeah. Yeah. That's really beautiful and profound. And these are the kinds of experiences that practicing the wheel really offers. Yeah. Because it's a safe structure, it's a really clear structure and, whether it's with a lover or a platonic friend it's really, an endless exploration in, in, what touch can provide.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's like developing a language, like a nonverbal lang, like a touch language, essentially. Yeah. I think it's and Betty, wouldn't you say it's never ending? Oh yes, absolutely. It's never ending. I'm still learning stuff about myself in playing. Yeah. And that's the fun and fascination about it.

It's like this endless frontier because as the nervous system feels safer and downregulates and just it's available for more pleasure and sensation. Pleasure, sensation. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's so great. So the book is coming out in February and remind me of your, because I know you have a personal link, and then is it the school of consent.com?

Yeah, it's school. We, my personal side is betty martin.org. And the school of consent, where we do our trainings is school of consent.org. Dot org. Okay. And the book is you can get it from either of those, but the book is wheel of consent book.com. Oh wheel of consent book.com. On both your personal Betty Martin website as well as the school of Consent, there's a page of like hours and hours of instructional videos Yeah.

That really break down. The wheel and how to engage with the wheel and subtle awarenesses of what you may encounter with each quadrant. It's just incredibly informative. Yeah. So encouraging people to check that out. And the facilitators training, is that online now or is it in person or both?

It's it's online. It's been online. We have a training that's for practitioners. That has been in person's five day training and we haven't done that since last February, and we're starting an online version of that since February. Yeah. And we're full already, actually it's December now we're full.

Oh, that's exciting. But there'll be more. Yeah, you can, if you're interested, go to put yourself on the newsletter and we'll let you know. Great. For listeners, I feel in, in the work that I do with clients who've e experienced sexual violations or sexual trauma, that re restoration of the voice the consent piece is so hugely restorative Yeah. To the whole experience of reclaiming your sexual sovereignty. Absolutely. It's like once the voice can. Once the body has the awareness of identifying its wants Yes. And what it doesn't want. Yeah. And then has the practice of voicing it and then somatically experiencing Yeah.

The effect of that voice. Yeah. That empowered voice. It's like a new kind of somatic awareness or software being installed into the sensory receptors. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Betty, thank you so much for the wheel, your work and for really courageously sharing your knowledge and the body of your work and your experiences with all of us.

You are so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Notice what this conversation brings up for you in your body.

Are there areas of consent and boundaries in your personal or professional relationships that can be clarified, that need to be communicated, that deserve to be honored?

Are there areas of consent and boundaries with colleagues? Friends or lovers that your body needs to clarify, communicate, and honor.

How easy is it to ask for what your body really wants to receive?

How easy is it to identify? What your body really wants.

Is there anything any part of your body wants to receive from you right now in the way of touch, attention, cooperation, or understanding?

In the next episode, we welcome Violet Lang. Expert in dating intimacy and relationships who shares very candidly about her journey as a survivor of past sexual abuse and the pivotal turning points and her journey in the restoration and reclamation of her body sensations, sexual pleasure and embodied sovereignty, and her insights as she now holds sacred space for the pleasure path for successful women all over the world.

 Thank you for listening to Your Body. Remembers Pleasure If this conversation supported you, the simple way to help this work reach more people is to leave a five star rating or a brief review. You'll also find more resources and teachings@rahichun.com. Until next time, take good care.