Rahi: Welcome to Organic Sexuality, where we explore the restoration of pleasure, the reclamation of sexual sovereignty, and the realization of our embodied sexual nature. An invitation to honor the pleasures of your body by embodying the pleasures of your nature. I'm your host, Rahi Chun. I'm a certified somatic sex educator, a Sexological Bodyworker, and creator of Somatic Sexual Wholeness. In today's episode, we explore the extraordinary work of Ali Mezey. Before we dive in, let me introduce you to one of the practices that shaped her path, family Constellations therapy, which we discuss in our interview. Family Constellations is a therapeutic approach that reveals hidden dynamics within families. In a group, people volunteer to act as representatives standing in for parents, siblings, ancestors, or even abstract forces. Amazingly, without knowing details, these representatives begin to feel and express the emotions and truths of those they represent. In this way, invisible loyalties, unresolved traumas and family patterns become visible in the room through the constellation.

Rahi: Now, building on this and informed by "Walking in Your Shoes" and decades of working with bodies, Ali created her own method called Personal Geometry. Instead of needing a whole group of people, she often uses post-it notes or colored pieces of paper placed on the floor to diagram internal body maps of any relationship. As clients feel into these positions, they experience what had been invisible. This simple, yet profound mapping process externalizes the subconscious, allowing us to see, move, and transform the patterns that have been shaping intimacy, sexuality, and relationships. In our conversation today, Ali explains how she developed this method, how efficiently it can reveal the dynamics between clients and their sexual issues, how it heals splits between heart and sexuality, and why erotic intimacy is one of the greatest portals for healing. Now, let's dive in.

Rahi: Today we're in for a real special treat. We have Ali Mezey, sexologist and somatic therapist with over 40 years of professional experience in reclaiming your brilliant body. Um, in introducing Ali there, there's just so much rich material and experiences that have been formed. Her wisdom and perspective. Um, you know, uh, she was a dancer growing up. She was, uh, certified as a massage therapist by age 19, which gives gives you a sense of, um, how early, you know, like at such a young age, like understanding the body. Um, she has developed a, uh, specific way of body mapping called Proprio Massage Integrated Body Mapping that leads to pattern changes, somatic pattern changes, and she has also developed a fascinating modality called Personal Geometry, which is informed by, um, family or systemic constellations and walking in your shoes. Um, you know, there's so, there's so much, uh, to Ally's, uh, uh, journey that, um, I'm very, very excited to have her here with us on the podcast today. Thanks for joining us, Ali,

Ali: Thanks for having me, Rahi. I'm so excited to be here, and I'm so grateful for how succinctly you summarized, you know, this almost 50 year journey that I've been on. Amazing. Definitely. And personally longer than that, so thank you for just putting it in such a gorgeous little basket of information there.

Rahi: Yes, yes. And, you know, of course, that's just like, I, I'm just, I mean, that's not all of it. Um, you know, we wanna hear about your five years as a sexologist at the Center for Healthy Sex. Yeah. I'd love to say in Los Angeles. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, but, you know, as a, as a jumping off point, I often ask guests like, what were the pivotal experiences, um, or events that have informed your, you know, journey and really kind of this rich array of, um, you know, experiences and trainings that have informed your work.

Ali: So, I'm actually gonna start, because I've been thinking about this more today before coming to be with you. I took my first dance class at four and had the experience of getting to just move as a body, and then soon became injured. Soon then, thanks to my dear mother, uh, was introduced to massage therapy at 16 when I had too many injuries. And the moment I experienced that, it just opens something in me. So that then when I left school between my freshman and, um, sophomore year and wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do, I was in this, you know, heavy duty academic environment, and I grew up in a very intellectual environment. I decided I wanted a trade. I wanted to really do something that was body oriented that I could practice throughout my life, regardless of whether I went on to higher education, which ultimately I decided not because my whole life so far has been about being a, an advocate for the intelligence for the body, which included a lot of having to find and come into respect of my own kind of indigenous intelligence that was so natural to me.

Ali: So body-based in an environment, in a culture, in a family system that was much more, um, emphatic about the importance of cognitive intelligence, which we all have really indoctrinated with. So I've always been super drawn to fascinated, um, concerned with how is it that our bodies can communicate within ourselves to all aspects of ourselves. And by the way, I'm not somebody who thinks of myself as being separate, um, the self and then I'm in my body, which I have a lot of difficulty with. You and I have talked about that. Mm-hmm. I continue to mm-hmm . Rampage about about that mm-hmm . That in, um, inherent dualism that's even within the grammar, the prepositions that we use. Oh, I'm the self in this body. My experience, uh, and my journey both personally and also professionally, has always been how can I become ever more detailed in my conscious awareness of my tissues, my experience, all the memories, the what people term, the subconscious that I believe is the body.

Ali: We are this body while we're alive as this particular form. And it is, it is mm-hmm . Equably related to all of what we've experienced, both personally, culturally, um, trans-generationally after becoming a massage therapist. And even though I ended up getting a bachelor's, I still did a thesis all about the body called the aesthetic of the human form and what our bodies, how our bodies reflect who we are, how our bodies affect how we live, and how we live affects our body and our body experience. So I have continued to be on this journey eventually, many, many years later, um, discovered family constellation work. Um, and that was a revelation to me to really even, you know, deepen this experience of within seconds being able to attune to and resonate and tap into pretty much anyone or anything as a what. Mm-hmm . Constellation work is called a representative in walking in Your shoes, a concurrent sort of sister method to constellation work, we call it walking.

Ali: So just by attuning to the body and setting an intention of what that our whole antenna as a body being wants to connect to, we can get a massive amount of information that will illuminate whatever it is we're concerned about. So those are particularly big things as well as mm-hmm . Personal journey involving also trauma and triumphs and all kinds of things. That was always focused on sexuality. I've just always been a body person. Mm-hmm . Been a very sexual person and always fascinated by sexuality, and was fortunate enough to grow up with a mother who welcomed my curiosity about sexuality. So she, I always knew where the books were, where I could read about it, just allow questions. So I'm unusually comfortable talking about sexuality, which is why Joseph Colt, the head of "Walking in Your Shoes," who co-founded it with Alex Kakis, who founded the Center for Healthy Sex.

Ali: Oh. That's how Joseph recommended me to Alex. And amazingly Wow. He took a huge, um, gamble on me to come in and do the somatic portion of these intensive, um, IOP, you know, outpatient treatments for people dealing with sexual compulsivity and addiction. So that's how I, I see developed personal geometry, because even though I'd been working for decades as a body worker and working in a very particular way, really with the three dimensionality of the body and the intelligence of proprioception, which is particularly in all the joints, and helping people to really bring their conscious awareness again in detail to all the system, all the body, all the movement, all the memories, all the capacity that the body has to be that much more aware of self, but also aware of others and the world and the universe ultimately. Mm-hmm . Free. Mm-hmm . It's free out.

Ali: Mm-hmm . You know, the, the life force that we all have been gifted with, so mm-hmm . Family constellation work, even though I was transitioning. 'cause by then I was in my early fifties and I was starting to age out of doing body work, and I've had multiple injuries myself and still grapple with injuries, which by the way have been a big teacher. Very informative, um, in all kinds of ways. That's an interesting topic in itself, is how does pain and restriction become a great teacher if we allow it to mm-hmm . Um, yeah. But I quickly found that constellation work, which is basically, and I'm sorry because I'm a great lover of constellation work, um, is basically really channeling ancestors. It's , it's got a big focus. Mm-hmm . Obviously on transgenerational, I shouldn't say obviously, 'cause people may not know about it, but it's all about transgenerational trauma and how that passes on through the generations when we exclude certain people, certain experiences, certain, um, uh, you know, traumas, family members mm-hmm .

Ali: They'll pass on. And we, as sensitive beings who are part of the web of a whole family system, might then start to express unconsciously and quite loyally, um, some of these issues and problems. And for me, first of all, within the context of sometimes only getting half an hour in a clinical environment, there wasn't any time to go to multiple generations. Most of the clients were these very left brain alpha dudes. Some were women, um, but most of them mm-hmm . Were very defended, very dissociated, um, detoxing either, uh, chemically Mm. Psychologically they were away from their families. And it was enough for them just to see me come in with a stack of colored mats and think that I was gonna make them do some sort of, you know, art therapy or something that was gonna be embarrassing or ridiculous or, or just wimpy in some way that was gonna be too foreign.

Ali: So what I really focused on more and more with personal geometry is that we have this innate language that is embedded. It is how we survive. And that language is spatial relationship. Almost everybody, unless there's been some kind of brain damage, or maybe in some unusual cases, or maybe if you're on the spectrum in some way, your sense of three dimensionality is altered in some way. But most of us have to always know who and what, and where we are as three dimensional beings in a mostly three dimensional environment. So whether that's a purely physical thing of I know where I'm sitting now in relation to the door, in relation to the screen, in relation to my dog, or whether it's I have this feeling of being encroached upon in an energetic way by a past partner or a parent, or a project that I'm dreading or whatever.

Ali: There is a sensational understanding that can be mapped and diagrammed in order to externalize and make consciously aware exactly what our relationships are, what our maps, our body maps have been, and what we want them to be for a greater sense of comfort. So if I ask people, for example, at the center with an addiction, 'cause then I ended up working at the Meadows, the Meadows and other rehab centers with addiction in particular, sexuality, a lot more fun, I have to say, than working with drugs and alcohol . But, you know, you can, uh, somebody will, within minutes, somebody will diagram their, their experience of their felt sense relationship to the drug and or the behavior and how it's functioning for them. So became the method that I use most of the time now. I teach it now because it is so applicable to any topic and any kind of practitioner who wants to augment what they're already doing, because the body will go right to it and immediately diagram whatever it is that somebody's contending with. Yeah.

Rahi: Yeah. It's really fascinating. I mean, there's so many things that, um, that you just shared as far as, you know, the experiences that have been pivotal in, in informing your journey as well as, you know, like really how personal geometry came to be that stand out for me. Like one, you know, this combination of being a dancer since you were four, you know, moving your body combined with your mother who was so open and nonjudgmental and accepting and celebratory, like she wanted you to be informed, you know, about the body, about sexuality, and that that pairing, you know, is, is a very potent pairing, you know, as a, as a, as a girl and then a young woman, uh, experiencing, you know, your whole self.

Ali: I, I, I just wanna note the plot thickens, because of course it was not that simple and it, it mm-hmm . There was also quite dark aspects of, of that to add to that, um, you know, aggregate, let's say, of experience that developed my sexuality and my experience in the world. So I just wanted to add that

Rahi: Essentially, like, it makes so much sense to me that, uh, constellation work mm-hmm . And personal geometry that came through you really resonated and had to come through you, given how you hold the body in its wholeness. You know, because I feel like what Constellation work does is it's really looking at the wholeness of a family system. And I feel like what you've been doing is looking at the wholeness of the embodiment system. You know, I, and so

Ali: Yes, because my view is the field, and this drives me back about installation work now, which is becoming more and more like that the field, the knowing field is something that is so amorphous, it's infinite, it's out there. And I'm always doing this gesture when I talk about the constellation concept of the field, because it is, it is still, um, dissociating for me, for me, the field. Mm-hmm . The body is the epicenter of anyone's given field. It has to start here. This is where, from which we, um, whether you're setting up humans to represent other people and do a full blown constellation, or I ask somebody to diagram their, um, that one for themselves and their relationship to orgasm or whatever it is that they're struggling with or wanting. Um, it, it is, it, the body knows exactly what it is. I don't have to rely on something out there to show up and tell me it's all right here. It is so flesh based. It is so melded in a way that we, in the, in our cultures, in most industrialized cultures, if not all, can really fully even understand how genius this, this, and, and complete this thing is that we are. So, yes.

Rahi: Right. Right. So that's why I feel like personal geometry had to come through someone who understands and Yeah. Is experienced, you know, that that depth and, and, and, um, study, you know, both experientially and as a body worker, because obviously, you know, Burt Hellinger, who we both, you know, uh, respect and, and appreciate, uh, does not come, you know, from that background. No. And so it makes sense that, right. That, that represent, that the way he held the space in the field was very different than someone who, uh, you know, it actually lives, you know, like, that, that, um, explores the state of embodiment, you know, as, as you have. Um, so I just wanna say for, um, listeners who's not, who are not familiar with family constellations or systemic constellations, um, it was developed by, uh, Bert Hellinger, and it's a very, very, actually a common practice in places like Germany, um, where, um, you know, as Ali mentioned, uh, issues regarding one's life can be threaded back or kind of revealed through the family systemic field, um, as a unfinished business of a previous generation. And by applying, uh, completion sentences and realigning the constellation, um, that these issues can be addressed. And it sounds like, Allie, you know, I'm really fascinated how you have taken walking, walking and constellation work to resolve and address issues of one's sexuality and their relationship with, you know, whether it's porn addiction or, you know, uh, inner orgasm, or can you give us a sense of how, you know, in such a short amount of time, you, you allow the, the, the constellation to reveal one's inner relationship with these issues?

Ali: Yeah. So I don't call what I do a constellation anymore unless I'm specifically doing a constellation for somebody. But let's take, let's, let's say you are doing a constellation with somebody about an issue, like a porn addiction. For me to go all the way to, okay, well my, um, you know, you do a whole genogram and you interview them and you get their narrative and you get what they've talked about in therapy for the last 12 years, and you get their, their belief or their defenses or their story basically about Right. What we think is going on. And then in constellation work, whether you're working one-on-one or you're working in a group, and then you start setting up the, the main, I don't like using this word actually, but players, or in my case when I work mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . You know, the, the, what I would call the kind of the joints of the dynamic.

Ali: Because when I'm doing what I do, I'm thinking of, I always ask people to look at whatever I sense into what, what, like in the body, what isn't moving, what can be moving mm-hmm . Um, that it is causing problems for people. So in a constellation, they're looking more at content and story and representatives working in a group to bring in information. And yes, they're also working with a skilled practitioner is also working with the nervous systems of the client and the nervous systems of the participants. So that, I have experienced this, and we've seen this many, many times where the nervous system of the individual and perhaps the whole family system, though, there's no way to prove that actually does shift and change, and off gas, you could say, uh, trauma that's been held and wrecking havoc in a family system. Mm-hmm . Just by my explaining that a bit, which by the way, thank you for talking, you know, describing constellation work.

Ali: I made the feature documentary films about constellation work. So if people are ever interested, you can go to constellation arts.com and get a five film series all about it. But what I came to find is that it's just too complicated. It's still too cerebral, and it's still about other people out there doing something for me while I sit here as the client. If it's in a group and other people are feeling things and moving things and changing things. And I'm just a passive witness, basically, who Yes. Is also hopefully working these things through my own nervous system. But what I'm much more fascinated about, particularly in the realm of addiction or anything where people don't feel like they have their agency, is for them to place things for them to move things for them to recognize, oh, wait a minute. It doesn't have to be that way.

Ali: So, for example, and I realize this is, most people will be listening to this and not looking at it. So even if you just use a post-its, I use usually objects 'cause they're three-dimensional. And also you get the symbology, which is another language of the body, but if you ask somebody to place a post-it with an arrow, because that's super important to know the direction of the gaze, because we, as human bodies, we are predators, we have eyes in the front of our heads. This is very different than a horse that is prey. A prey animal that has eyes on the side of its head. They will orient in space in a very different way than we do. So you always need to indicate where the eyes are, which direction they're facing, because it's gonna have a completely different sensation and a completely different meaning.

Ali: If the client self is facing, for example, porn that's smack in front of them, maybe that's how they feel like it. They're like, oh, well, I know where that is. I'm here and porn is two inches in front of my face. Now, obviously, that could be a literal reflection of the physicality of a screen in front of them, but most people will immediately have this sense of that's what it's like. That's all I can see in my life. I can't see anything else. I'm not looking at anything else. I feel like I can't walk forward or I'll bash right into porn that's smack in front of me. How does it feel? I don't like it. I don't like it. It's ruining my life. That's all I can see. So just by placing that in literally 10, 15 seconds, somebody gets a complete experience of, or at least the beginning of a sensational experience of, I recognize that that's the water I've been swimming in and I don't like it.

Ali: And then we can build it out like, well, is there something you're avoiding seeing? Is there something behind it you don't wanna see? Is there something that you're afraid of looking at that's behind you? Is there something that is who or what is implicated in this relationship? So then, depending on what they say, if you bring in, um, a parent or parents, or you bring in a, a partner, the plot thickens really, really fast because you immediately start to see, oh, porn is there. So I don't have to look at my ex-wife, or I, I, my mother is, is right on top of me, or my father is actually way across the room with his back to me. And it's too painful to have to even look at or feel. You can start to see super quickly the function that placement and that body map has for that person.

Ali: Mm-hmm . So it's more immediate, like Yeah. Then I, we can get into, well, did your uncle was, you know, was he a pervy guy? And what happened to you when you were a kid? And yes, we definitely could bring in, usually there's, there, well, at the center there, there could be trauma, sexual trauma, um, all kinds of things, which then starts to unfold. And depending on how much time and how deeply the person wants to go, we, we get into the deeper layers of what maps are. But I love efficacy of personal geometry that it can go somewhere so quickly in a way the body can recognize and change. I love the simplicity of just going right to one of these s the body that doesn't involve the, again, the story that isn't always necessary.

Rahi: Yeah. That is such a great example to illustrate the efficacy and the kind of underlying themes underneath someone's compulsive, you know, addiction or behavior. I love that it immediately externalizes the, the internal, um, relational landscape of a person and their experience.

Ali: I love word that word. Yes. Mm-hmm .

Rahi: It's, it's really, really, um, brilliant in that way because it, I mean, for some people that all of those dynamics can be totally out of their awareness. And as you pointed out, when they can see it and they can feel the spatial relationships that have been in the body externalized, they immediately can get it.

Ali: You got it. That's exactly right. That's exactly it. Yeah. It's super exciting. Yeah. And super fun. And I can't tell you how many times I've had people say, I just saw, felt and, and changed what I've been trying mm-hmm . To understand for the last 12 years mm-hmm . In therapy in one session.

Rahi: In one session. Sure. Because the example you gave, I know it was just an example, but, you know, like, I think a lot of people, the example was around porn addiction, but it could be inorgasmia, it could be a premature, it could be anything. And they're focused on that issue rather than understanding the layers of the currents of what is informing that behavior. So the, in the example you gave, like immediately someone can realize, oh, it's because my mother's on top of me, or because, you know, I'm, I'm avoiding the pain of my father, you know, uh, my father's back against me, or whatever it is. And then they can address the root of the issue rather than the behavior that's coming from it.

Ali: Yes. And then choose, do you still want it in front of you or do you wanna move it, or do you wanna move yourself? Do you wanna turn around? Do you want to, I mean, just the experience of somebody in a session recognizing that they can turn a colored piece of paper, or a mat or an object 180 degrees and have porn behind them rather than smack in front of them. Right. It sounds so ridiculous that something so seemingly trivial, like just moving something 180 degrees would have such a huge impact, but it does mm-hmm . Because again, this is Sure. Mapped in the body, not just as a physical phenomenon in relationship, but all the maps, I, I was just trying to, I was thinking about it today on my walk, just how do you explain that? It's, there's so many tracks. This is a neurological thing, like how do we actually map this? It's, it's neurology, it's meridians. Mm-hmm . It's memory, it's fascia, it is all mm-hmm . Tracks. Like, I was thinking about orgasm before meeting with you, and I thought, oh, inevitably we're gonna talk about that topic, which is such an important topic. Obviously.

Rahi: It's, it's

Ali: Flipping complicated for a lot of us. It's complicated. Absolutely. Most people don't have a simple relationship to orgasm, in my experience anyway. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Because it's difficult or it's too easy, or it brings up memories or, um mm-hmm . Alone, but not with a partner or, you know, I don't wanna get bonded or it's, they're, they're windy. Right. I want bigger orgasms or, you know, uh, I just wanna expand.

Rahi: It's very complex. It's

Ali: Complex, but you can map that absolutely. Geometry in such a quick way to, to help it become conscious and start to recognize, recognize it isn't just a physical proximity, it's also how close do I feel it to it emotionally? How do I feel it to it spiritually? What happens when my partner comes into that map? How does that change geometry? Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm . It

Ali: A lot with the heart sexuality split, I think I mentioned that to you. Mm,

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .

Ali: I would love to talk more about that because

Rahi: Let's do, let's do, let's go right into it. So, so the heart sexuality split, I'm, I'm, I mean, I, I would be so fascinated to see a personal geometry session unfold with those elements, because I'm guessing, given the society we live in and all the conditioning and the messages, it's really split. It's, it's more split than it's aligned for most people. And that I, I, I'm guessing, gets revealed in personal geometry, uh, pretty, pretty quickly

Ali: Immediately. And if anybody who's listening wants to just take a few post-its mm-hmm . On one, you write self and place an arrow to represent the gaze on one. You write heart in an arrow to represent which direction that would be facing if somebody were standing on it. And one to represent sexuality with an arrow and place those on a piece of eight by 11 and eight and a half by 11 paper or on a table. And how do you experience the relationship between those three elements, self, heart, and sexuality right now? Mm-hmm . It could be tomorrow, it could be different. Mm-hmm . In a partner, and they might spread apart or come more together. It could be different. Um, if you bring in the church , you know, sure. Influential element that might have really influenced that relationship, and you might find that yours feel totally one and the same and aligned. There's a continuum. There's lots of elements that go into the ebb and flow, and some people keep theirs intentionally apart. Some people mm-hmm. Them apart with one lover, but not with another. Mm-hmm. This is so interesting. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm .

Ali: By the way, if you ask people to, uh, diagram and map their heart sexuality relationship in relation to one partner and then in relation to another. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Ali: It can be super interesting to see, oh, no wonder with this person, I'm more like this, and with this person I'm more like that. Mm-hmm . In the course of a relationship over a long period of time, from any given day or any given lovemaking or sex session, you might feel really congruent yourself, but maybe your partner isn't, or maybe you both are in a fortunate world, if that's your value, it's a really helpful way to immediately get a sense. It's a amazing, I don't wanna say litmus test, but I just did, but because it's not a test, it's just a reflection mm-hmm . Where I'm at this time, that will probably illuminate whatever the issue is, for example, in orgasm, how one is in relation to difficulty having an orgasm in relation to one's heart, or in relation to one's sexuality. Maybe it's closer to the heart than closer to the sexuality, which is super interesting. Mm-hmm . Why would,

Rahi: It's super interesting,

Ali: Be closer to a heart, someone's emotional being, rather than their sexual being. Well, that's new. Mm-hmm. I would've thought it had to do with I was broken sexually. Not that I was broken hearted, for example. so much information mm-hmm .

Rahi: Yeah. But Ally, I'm, I'm curious because you, I mean, there are two themes here. Like one, it seems like there is juice around wanting to explore the complexity of orgasm because it's true. You know, it's like, you know, there's so many books out there that talk about technique and physiology, but they don't even touch the layers of complexity that get revealed in a personal geometry. You know, as you alluded to the relationship, be, you know, of the heart and where that, where that comes in, you know, past lovers, you know, religion, you know, obviously like the, you know, the, the influence of our parents. All of those things inform Yeah. How our life force, how vital our life force feels in how they wanna be expressed and celebrated. Right. But then the other theme you spoke about, and I guess, well, they are, they're directly related, is the heart sexuality, uh, alignment or misalignment. I'm curious in your work with personal geometry and having witnessed, you know, so many sessions, has, has something really stood out as far as, um, surprising you about people's misalignment or alignment between heart and sexuality or between their relationship with their own orgasm?

Ali: Off the cuff, I would say no. And that's one of the things I love so much about personal geometry, is that it is so individual, and that is mm-hmm . Session to session or moment to moment, somebody will reflect. I've had people literally get down on the floor and feel a millimeter of change be because it didn't feel the positioning or the dynamic, the felt sense relationship was quite right. That's how specific people can get about this is what it feels like to me, to today in this moment. And it's potentially ever changing. Yeah. It's just so changing. But I'll tell you, man, you, you asked somebody to put place one representing themselves and one for orgasm. Most people will do it again in seconds or a minute or two, and they're gonna immediately go, oh my God, it's 20 feet away from me, and it's got its back to me, or it's right on top of me, or it's underneath me, or, um, it's, it's, it's coming in at me from the side, and I feel all this pressure or people will immediately feel whatever they're seeing.

Rahi: Yeah. Something I want, I do wanna add just for our audience members, you know, as they're listening and they have, they're engaged in some question about their sexuality, whether it is, you know, inorgasmia or, or porn addiction or, or, uh, premature or whatever it is around, it could be a, a heart sexuality disconnect, considering that the root of the issue may have nothing to do with that, but what your, uh, unresolved relational dynamics are with the, the people that are most important in your life. You know, as you mentioned with the porn example, you know, it could be an ex lover, a father, a mother, and, um, I mean, it, it makes me really question the nature of our addictions and, you know, com compulsive behavior, because my sense, you know, like I was really informed by, by, uh, Gabor mate's work, you know, around addiction and helping me realize, oh, this is just everyone's different way of trying to deal with the pain in their life. Yes. You know, some wound from childhood and, you know, the example you gave with porn addiction, uh, and the influences that can be, you know, so varied from different, important people in one's life. Um, you know, like I, I feel like a lot of society focuses on addressing the addiction and not the underlying relational dysfunctions that are leading to the addiction. We're, we're not really getting to the root or the source. Well,

Ali: Again, not to keep blowing, blowing this horn, but, um, if you ask somebody to place one for them and one for whatever the addiction is, they wanna look at, yes,

Ali: They'll map for you how it's functioning for them. And more often than not, there's a variety, and I'm, I'm working on a book about this, so I'm not gonna get into a lot of detail, but oftentimes more than not, there is, people will put an addiction behind them because that is a position of support. In a perfect world, that's where our parents would stand. They would have our back, back on them, they would be behind us, guiding us forward. Most people, a lot of people don't have that. A lot of addicts don't have that. They don't have support mm-hmm . But addic, the, whatever they're addicted to, they can rely on that, that's gonna be there for them. They can buy it. Mm-hmm. They can find it, they can, you know, turn on a screen and it's gonna make them feel better. Mm-hmm . Over and over and over and over again.

Ali: Mm-hmm . So just by seeing, oh my God, there's nothing behind me, there's no one behind me. Or help them discover, actually, there are other things behind you if you free up that space. Mm-hmm. However, I wanna mention something else because it's so prevalent in the sexuality, how it's implicated in sexuality issues, which is there is a lot of emotional incest, meaning that if a parent or parents are unhappily married, often happens that one spouse, one parent, will look to their child for fulfillment, reflection, reflection, um, affirmation that they're not getting from your spouse. So that is emotional incest. We're not gonna even touch the area, you know, the issue of potential physical, sexual incest. Okay. So let's just put that aside. You can see that again within seconds. If somebody is basically more or less energetically, psychologically, emotionally married, so to speak, merged mm-hmm . Or a melded with a parent, right. This makes it very difficult to bond with a partner.

Rahi: Mm-hmm .

Ali: So one way to not quite bond with a partner can be to cheat on them. And this can be unconscious behavior. I can't tell you how many months blew when I was pointing out the, the, this same thing to people and go, oh my God, I haven't been able to commit to somebody because I'm still flipping committed to my what mother, you know? Right, right. Or, I, I can't fully come into somebody, I can't merge with somebody and meld with somebody because that would be a disloyalty. These are unconscious things until again, you put it on the floor, you put it on a piece of paper, and you're like, oh my God, the place for a partner is taken. And in orgasms, you can see how that geometry is brilliantly in indicative of that, you know, suffering they've been experiencing. Yeah.

Rahi: Yeah. You can see the orchestration at play in the geometry.

Ali: Yes. You get it. Yeah. Yeah. You totally get

Rahi: It. That scenario of still being meshed or, uh, merged or married to like one's mother out of a confused sense of loyalty can be a reason why someone is addicted to porn or in orgasmic or has pe Yes. I mean, this is like a great example of the underlying cause. Okay. So at this point, I want to point out that, um, Allie actually, she provides personal geometry trainings for coaches, therapists, facilitators, sexologists, uh, addiction specialists, so you can find all that information on her site. And she is actually speaking at the Sexual Health Alliance. Yes. Uh, next month in Denver on body mapping for sexual healing. Is your site, Ali, is it just, is it your name?

Ali: Yeah, a LI, yes. MEZE y.com. Yep.

Rahi: I, I should say, um, Allie had me on her podcast about a month ago, and it was so just like invigorating and enriching to dive deep into these topics. And so, you know, I really wanted her to have a chance to share her wealth of knowledge. You know, on, on our podcast, we actually met on the dance floor like 20, 25 years ago. Yep. Yeah. Like 25 years ago. Uh, here in Los Angeles, there's a vibrant, ecstatic dance community. And, and that's how we got to be friends. And then lo and behold, like 15, 20 years later, we had both, you know, become, uh, certified sexological body workers in our own kind of respective journeys. And so it's been so, so delightful to reconnect, you know, now that we're in these different places in our respective, uh, professional, uh, fields, which happens to be the same.

Ali: Yeah. Love it. And let's talk about inhibition. 'cause this is also super, super important part of why we don't surrender, quote unquote, or meld whatever verb you wanna call it.

Rahi: Yes.

Ali: While being sexual with self or another, or others is because we can say we, there is dissociation for whatever reason. There's the part of the, the right, the left brain, the witness, the, the commentator, the critic, um, the, the analyst, you know, who doesn't let go because our left brains mm-hmm . Are trained to do that. Perhaps they're designed to do that. And for many of us, that doesn't go away, perhaps ever mm-hmm . Maybe down to 5%, maybe if you're in a particularly cosmic experience or, you know, intoxicated in some way. Sure. Maybe zero, I don't know. Um, there's times when I feel like I am totally aligned, but there's a lot of times where I don't. But a lot of the reason in my view and professionally and personally is that people think sex is supposed to be a certain way, and that mm-hmm .

Ali: That's why people are inhibited because they're like, oh, well, I'm not gonna be able to do it that way. I'm not gonna be able to feel this physically, emotionally, psychologically. I'm not gonna be able to perform in this particular way. I'm not gonna be able to look this way and, uh, as a body, I'm not gonna be able to mm-hmm . Feel I wanna feel towards this other person physically or emotionally. There's all these expectations that one is comparing oneself to mm-hmm. Which results in a sense of, oh, well, I can't possibly be in everything I'm experiencing with this person. I mean, most people don't even talk about sex with a person with whom they're having it. So how can they totally possibly be in, I feel really sad right now. I feel like crying right now. I'm so frustrated that I can't come, actually I wanna punch you in the face. Oh no. That's reminding me of my whomever in my past. Right,

Rahi: Right. And

Ali: All of that could be shared. Not actually, you know, I'm not suggesting people hit each other unless it's consensual and to desired, but if people were allowed to be in the authenticity of whatever was happening in their full experience, uhhuh, there would be so much less inhibition, even if that was just being with, I can't come right now. I'm so frustrated. And being able to express that more fully instead of like tightening and just going, I'm a failure. I'm a failure. I'm frigid. I'm a failure, I'm a failure , because that's not gonna help anything. It just shuts the whole system down and it shuts the intimacy down, obviously, instead of including it in the experience.

Rahi: I feel like what you're speaking to is so important because it is so universal. I mean, if you think about the way two people or more get together sexually, right there, I mean, sexuality is so charged in our society, first of all. Second of all, there's so much sexual ego and sexual identity. And what I mean by that is people seem to place a certain value of their worth as a human being based on their sexual performance and how they perceive themselves sexually. And so I feel like all of these things come into the bedroom during courtship and during courtship is when we start to develop patterns, you know, in our sexual intimacy with a partner. You know, I feel like what you're speaking to Ali is really giving people permission to let go of all of that and just like, be as you are emotionally, physically, with your curiosity, with your Yeah. Just showing up transparently and allowing all of that to inform your experience of being intimate with each other.

Ali: A hundred percent. Yeah.

Rahi: Absolutely. I wanna pull in some data and just to underscore that studies show that the degree that affects our pleasure sexually the most is the emotional connection between two people. So what you're speaking to the inhibition is directly correlated to how emotionally free or how emotionally rigid we're, I mean, essentially the emotional rigidness is gonna affect our sexual, the of our pleasure.

Ali: It's not vice versa. The degree to which we feel emotionally connected will affect our, our lack of inhibition or inhibition. Say that again? Well,

Rahi: Yeah. It goes both ways. So the deeper the emotional connection, right, the greater the pleasure, the sexual pleasure, and the, and the, the lack of emotional connection will lead to performative very limiting pleasure experiences. So what you're speaking to it, you know, there's so much important wisdom in it because the more emotionally uninhibited we are with each other, the more pleasure we're gonna experience.

Ali: Sexuality is still the most fascinating, compelling and blessed experience when it's feels right, you know? Mm-hmm . And expansive. And it's, it's such a homecoming. And I just wanna acknowledge that as well. Like the opportunity in it and the capacity there is for healing because of the intrinsic vulnerability of it is, is unparalleled, I believe. I mean, which is why of course, we're both in this field, because you can reach down into those deepest places and help transform them through this body of work, through this body experience, through the, the, you know, birthright of sexual expression.

Rahi: Yeah. I, I fully agree Ally. I, I feel like when, when there is a depth of, uh, safety, trust, and surrender, there are elements of our consciousness that really open. And in that container, there are wounds that are, that, that may have been, um, difficult to touch into or repair that become accessible in that container of erotic, intimate, heart-centered alchemy. And I think there's nothing like it because it really, I mean, it touches on, so, you know, it's almost like the inner child, the adult wise one, I dunno if I can even put it into words to give it justice, but there seems to be some kind of alchemical portal that opens up, you know, in that erotic being fully seen, uh, for all of the messiness and being cherished and loved for it. And you, you add in the pleasure and the joy of that, and it seems to recalibrate or, you know, repair, re imprint something new of an old story where there was wounding. Mm. So I totally agree with you.

Ali: So beautifully said. And for people who don't, or haven't yet shared this, who aren't sharing this with a partner, um, a lay person, so to speak mm-hmm . A civilian. Yeah. You know, people like Rahi are doing this amazing hands on hands in work who can, um, hold that space and have that skill. And I mean, I, I've gotten more healing out of sexological body workers than probably anything in my life. I mean, it's been tremendously mm-hmm . Important not just psychologically, spiritually, energetically, but also physically because I had a severe tailbone break when I was also, oh, I, I, I shoulda added that in as a particularly significant milestone in my life, because I always try to bring this up because so many people, particularly if you're struggling with any kind of orgasmic issues, don't recognize even professionals and doctors don't recognize how much a tailbone break can influence mm-hmm . The innovation of the pelvic floor, the torque, and the, you know, the musculature and the hypertension of the pelvic floor, and it can really affect your nerve feed into your, um, clitoris mm-hmm . Into your penis, into whatever you got. Mm-hmm . So I just wanted to add that in, that sexological body work can be extremely helpful to go internally anally and vaginally into this deep scar tissue that can be, um, you know, again, not just emotional and from trauma, but also just also physical that because

Rahi: Straight up physical Absolutely. Absolutely. In the same, I mean, in a different way, but in a similar way, the example of like playing a king in a Shakespearean play can give a teenager like a new palette of, uh, a new context of what the body can feel sexological body work, you know, I mean, I've had clients who are inner orgasmic, and then it gives them, it, it rewires what the body knows is possible, you know, as far as arousal, pleasure, orgasm. And that can then just shift the whole story of, you know, for the body of being a sexual being. Um, and it's so, so powerful. Um,

Ali: Totally. Just once you felt it, you can't unfeel it. You may not be able Exactly. Replicate it in exactly the same way, or it may take you some time, but you're no longer the story of the one who can't come because you did. Yeah. You've done it at least once. You can certainly do it again and again and again. Yeah.

Rahi: You know, so it's, it, you know, going back to the antenna, you know, the antenna, it's like a whole new range of things can be picked up, you know, of shift. Hallie, as we wrap up here, um, again, always wonderful to dive into these rich explorations with you. Um, how can people find you and learn more about personal geometry?

Ali: Yeah, so as we mentioned, just go to my website at www.alimezey.com. There's a whole page under training if you're interested in taking my eight week next cohort starts mid-November. That is a foundational class to teach personal geometry to any kind of practitioner, or you can do a lot of your own personal work in that class as well. And then I also, um, have my podcast, the Brilliant Body Podcast, which is a fantastic collection of conversations with a variety of different body masters, not just about sex and sexuality, but about all kinds of things, um, to explore the brilliance of the body. And then I'm working with people, I'm gonna be in Los Angeles mid-October to mid-November. I work hands-on, I do one-on-ones work with couples, um, do, uh, you know, somatic immersions if people wanna really do a deep dive into just getting at the root causes of these issues along with some body work. I'm not currently working as a sexological body worker, but I can do a lot without working directly with the genitals. Um, yeah. And I just get on my list so you know what's coming up next. Mm-hmm . Always offering some new stuff and would love to have any and all of you come and join me.

Rahi: That's so great. So great. Uh, Allie, thanks for being on the podcast. It's always great to see you, and I look forward to seeing you.

Ali: Likewise.

Rahi: How is today's episode landing in your body right now? Are there aspects of how you experience your sexuality that may have nothing to do with sexuality itself, but shaped by unseen forces within the personal geometry of your relational dynamics that are now yearning to be revealed? And when you feel into your heart and sexuality dynamic, is there a sense of harmony and alignment, disconnect, or something in between? What might you begin to explore to bring greater sexual coherence within yourself and with your precious erotic life force? Links to the wide range of Ali's offerings can be found at her site, ali mase.com and also in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this conversation, Allie and I dive into more rich topics this week on her The Brilliant Body Podcast. Until next time, take good care, .